Sanders and 4-day workweek

[alhoon]

The gist: Sanders says it is time to start discussing about 4-day workweeks with no loss in pay (so essentially a 20% salary increase) since technology makes us more productive and the workers should see benefit from that.

I strongly disagree with Sanders in a lot of things, and I don't like his approach to this issue... but it is something we should discuss at some point. He does have a point there but I don't like how he frames it.

Automatization is still raising. Just a year after ChatGTP became famous, there are companies that replace part of the workforce with chatbots. We keep reading about self-driving trucks that spread despite some issues - and the issues will be solved. Precision agriculture requires less hands. etc.

These are bound to create issues with unemployment similar to how the spread of machines in the industrial revolution created issues. And the point is... do we really need to work as much as we did 3-4 years ago, for companies to remain profitable?

I... have no answer.


Yes, google can afford to replace a lot of menial tasks with robots/AI etc. Frankly, technical support and customer support could benefit from having much of the workload go to AI chatbots at the level they already are, before complicated questions go to people.
Yes, in a few years companies would need much fewer drivers for their trucks. Have one driver lead the 3-truck convoys etc. Same with tractors on the field.
Thus both such fields would see large lay-offs and unemployment as people are replaced or new positions are taken by AI.

BUT

If there is 4-day workweeks, meaning that some fields won't face such great unemployment and lay-offs it would be 32-workweeks for everyone, meaning restaurants, groceries, supermarkets, shops etc that cannot replace their workforce with AI / Robots / Automatization will see a 20% increase in salary costs as they need to pay 5 people to do the job that 4 people used to do.
And that's a "woopsie". Yes, McDonalds and other big restaurants will survive the cost increase AND they can afford more automatization in their kitchens.
But the Corner shoe-shop that has the owner and two employees will face issues.
And if the various governments go "These jobs now have 32-hour work weeks and those have still 40-hour work weeks" there will still be issues as the shoe-shop employee will consider jumping to one of those 32-hour jobs since they practically pay more. And to compensate, the shoe-shop owner should still give a raise; perhaps not 20% but 10% for sure.


There are also more issues that I have no answer for:

32 hours per week sure sound nice. Let's say that all companies can survive that transition.
What about the free time? That is not a problem for many Americans as they work long hours but trust me, for many people boredom is an issue. Ask retired people and there was a time to adjust to all that free time. I saw that with my parents. And my mother still sneaks to my sister's shop to help her so that she can feel productive.
"Not an issue, get another job!" is a possible answer.
"Not an issue, some of those jobs will be about creating entertainment!" is another answer.
Weeeeell... here is the problem. Many people feel the free time with delving in the echo-chambers of the social media. And then you have far-right and far-left going gaga.
Of course, everyone is responsible of how he or she spends their time and having options is not a bad thing. Nor is the solution to the echo-chambers "work 14 hours and never see the sun so that you won't have time to get brainwashed".


Then, there's the ethical issue. Sure, sure, workers should see benefits similar to the CEOs and stakeholders as companies expand and embrace new technologies. And an effective 20% raise to either your free time OR your salary is nice.
But should we be saying "as our opportunities improve, we should work less" ?

What do you guys think?
I am 60% for and 40% against the 32-hour workday and I am 40% for and 60% against Sanders' way of framing it.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now on the article itself:
"Research published in July by 4 Day Week Global, a firm that advocates for a shorter week, found that not one of 41 companies involved in 4-day workweek trials in Canada and the United States planned to return to five-day weeks after the conclusion of the test period."

I call BS on that. I can't believe not ONE of the 41 companies was against 20% pay-rise, except if the companies were rolling in it. I understand that those companies probably face issues with filling positions, so giving such benefits would attract lots of people they need BUT too-low unemployment is a temporal issue.
And I would bet none of those companies were companies that salaries took 60% of their gross revenue. Go ask THAT kind of company and then come and tell me they would love a 20% increase in salaries.


"UAW President Shawn Fain has laid out a series of demands that include a 46% pay raise, a return to traditional pensions, and a four-day workweek capped at 32 hours."

And they ask me why I am against unions...

[conon394]

"UAW President Shawn Fain has laid out a series of demands that include a 46% pay raise, a return to traditional pensions, and a four-day workweek capped at 32 hours."

And they ask me why I am against unions...

One does not start bargaining with you final minimal position.

http://www.alternativeinsight.com/pr...real-wages.jpg

Seems pretty self explanatory. Not mention corporates profits are a decade long high and all too many corporations wasted their Trump tax cut on wait for it investing in there capital stock, worker training and new equipment - oh no in utterly pointless and useless stick buybacks (unless of course management just wants to pop the stock so they can sell options). Note autoworkers were asked to make all manner of cuts during the bailout... CEO Pay seems to have recovered just fine in fact well ahead of inflation by a significant amount the actual increase asked for by the UAW over I belive 4 years would just basically restore what they gave up to save the companies back in the day.

edit: That said I think they should lean a bit more into profit share and a clear ability to see the books as were.

[AqD]

If it's to be applied to everyone, that also covers uber drivers, international shipping and self-employed? Wouldn't US based businesses of such kind suddenly lose to non-US competitors due to the 20% difference in labor cost?

In that case I support the policy 100%, in US of course, since I'm not there.

[alhoon]

If it's to be applied to everyone, that also covers uber drivers, international shipping and self-employed? Wouldn't US based businesses of such kind suddenly lose to non-US competitors due to the 20% difference in labor cost?

In that case I support the policy 100%, in US of course, since I'm not there.

Back when there were discussions to put laws against Child Labor, We heard all those things too.
Or, as said in Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/user/nicogla/
" 'Nobody is forcing them' to 'But if we ban it, our industries will no longer be competitive' and 'When they work, they are not on the streets.' I think this is an example that we must always keep in mind, because many of these arguments, from the 'so-called choice' and 'competitiveness' through to the 'false alternative,' are still regularly used today to justify practices that are morally reprehensible."

We also heard similar things when the English were discussing to end their Empire.

[sumskilz]

so essentially a 20% salary increase

25%

[AqD]

Back when there were discussions to put laws against Child Labor, We heard all those things too.
Or, as said in Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/user/nicogla/
" 'Nobody is forcing them' to 'But if we ban it, our industries will no longer be competitive' and 'When they work, they are not on the streets.' I think this is an example that we must always keep in mind, because many of these arguments, from the 'so-called choice' and 'competitiveness' through to the 'false alternative,' are still regularly used today to justify practices that are morally reprehensible."

We also heard similar things when the English were discussing to end their Empire.

The reasoning for child labor is quite different. Having children in education instead of early labors, provided the education does happen and poor families receive enough compensations, would end up being a great investment for the entire nation and for the children themselves, except in edge cases where children prefer to become for example master thieves or drug lords whose skills are not taught in public schools.

But back to the topic, what exactly would 4-day workweek offer? And how is the government going to ensure competitiveness for small companies or the current level of salary for workers? Without further research, I'd say he should also provide a flat 25% universal income to offset the disadvantages for all employed persons. And then the forced 4-day workweek wouldn't be so important as workers can negotiate themselves if they like the idea. But what to do with self-employed? Taxi drivers? and +25% for CEOs to work 4 days a week seem a bit excessive.

[Cyclops]

Does it work? Increasingly automated jobs can be ridiculously productive, some societies can afford it.

The US model works extremely well but is based in part on exporting low paid jobs to other countries, which exports the pollution /slavery etc. The work ethic is admirable and they perform well but there must be a cost in terms of burnout, and also human rights elsewhere.

The Nordic/EU model does much the same (exporting the costs) but wins domestic votes by taxing higher and providing more services.

Australia lands in the middle. They all work, I think the push for the 35 hour week or 4 day week is based on that Nordic model and not sure it would work in the US without a bunch of other changes. It might work in Oz, we have a safety net and might even be able to manage the UBI.

25%

Got him, Alhoon outed as an executive.

At one workplace decades ago we had a gun collector/barracks lawyer who negotiated with management for the pay deals. The top brass wanted to sack him but they were worried he'd go postal (I mean the guy was 100% safe but "gun collector" makes people pause), and as a nitpicker he knew all the little tricks. I was on the other side of the desk from him once (not on pay, it was a complaint against management) and he trotted out terms like "Nuremberg defence" and " shut up thats " and gave me a complete hiding. In the US he'd be on a blacklist I think, in Australia he was a union rep.

[alhoon]

The reasoning for child labor is quite different. Having children in education instead of early labors, provided the education does happen and poor families receive enough compensations, would end up being a great investment for the entire nation and for the children themselves, except in edge cases where children prefer to become for example master thieves or drug lords whose skills are not taught in public schools.

But back to the topic, what exactly would 4-day workweek offer? And how is the government going to ensure competitiveness for small companies or the current level of salary for workers? Without further research, I'd say he should also provide a flat 25% universal income to offset the disadvantages for all employed persons. And then the forced 4-day workweek wouldn't be so important as workers can negotiate themselves if they like the idea. But what to do with self-employed? Taxi drivers? and +25% for CEOs to work 4 days a week seem a bit excessive.

The thing is AqD that we need less jobs thanks to automatization. Instead of creating new jobs, we could very well enjoy life in a utopia where we need to work less hours to afford a decent living.
Taxi drivers? +15% to the tariffs and paying less-taxed gas.
The CEOs usually don't have contracts that go with workhours AND much of their income comes from bonuses. The CEOs also can afford a pay cut.
How small businesses will remain competitive? Small businesses in USA do not compete with businesses outside the USA. And by small business, I mean the grocery or the bookstore or those businesses with like 10-20 employees. A "Small" factory that has "just" 80 people could very well work with automatization and those 80 people to receive the same salary for working less hours. Which is the point.

The problem I see with the small businesses (The grocery or the restaurant or the 15 rooms hotel) is that most cannot just invest a ton of money to automatize and thus, they will need to hire more people. Which indeed could produce a strain to them.

[AqD]

The thing is AqD that we need less jobs thanks to automatization. Instead of creating new jobs, we could very well enjoy life in a utopia where we need to work less hours to afford a decent living.

In many countries you can already choose not to work and still have a decent living. In a Swedish prison for example.

Biden is not promoting automatization and there is no telling how much automatization can help existing labors. If it's indeed enough to cover 4 days week, why not just fire 25% of employees? Unless he has evidences proving 4 days week is more productive or otherwise benefits most people, it's just as hilarious as reducing everyone's work load by half and then hire 100% more employees.

[alhoon]

In many countries you can already choose not to work and still have a decent living. In a Swedish prison for example.

You got me there.

Biden is not promoting automatization and there is no telling how much automatization can help existing labors. If it's indeed enough to cover 4 days week, why not just fire 25% of employees? Unless he has evidences proving 4 days week is more productive or otherwise benefits most people, it's just as hilarious as reducing everyone's work load by half and then hire 100% more employees.

Why not fire 25% of employees: Because unemployment will raise.
As hilarious as reducing everyone's workload by half and then hire 100% more people: The next target, hopefully in 30-50 years. Where we can work 20 hours per week and have the same standard of living we have now with 40 hours per week. Or more or less the standard of living in a Swedish prison.
If they made those Co-ed, I would go there.