My 3K campaign, venting. Was: Help with ^&!@ Yellow Turban Rebellion - new to 3K

[alhoon]

EDIT:
I will use this thread for my ongoing ... multi-tried campaign? Campaigns? Not sure how to call it. I have started the same campaign a few times already. I am having a blast and I want to discuss things. Since this section of the forums is slow and I won't easily get to actually discuss and share with people that had similar experiences all I can do is put things here, like a kind of weird AAR and hope someone will see it and share opinions or I could look back at it years later and remember the good times.


Original Post
I have got 3K for a long long time, but I didn't play it as my computer was not up to the task. I now have a much better computer I can play the game and since I am on semi-vacation I tried my hand in the game.
I liked the idea of playing in the Yellow Turban rebellion, the earlier starting time as the disintegrating empire and opportunists and opportunities appeals to me.
Since there are new mechanics and stuff, I decided to go for someone "Easy" and I got that prince on the side of the Empire that is recommended at that era and has the tag "easy" faction.

I am at turn 8, the disintegration of the Empire has started and ... I find myself surrounded by enemies (again, turn 8), with stacks of enemies powerful enough to overcome my modest town garrisons. As I was attacked from two sides at the same time, I have lost a settlement and ...the enemy there is too powerful for me to retake with my meager forces. The game asked me to get 5 archers in my army and I cannot afford to get enough forces to shield them from the enemy I have to dislodge.
But that situation is not my main problem. No. My main problem is that I am surrounded by enemies! If I take 3 more turns (at least) to defeat the other army on my southern settlements and the guys in the settlement, I will end up with a battered army, completely empty coffers and ... 2 real enemies (not wandering bands) on my borders. And that assumes these enemies have not also moved in on me. Or that more of those "easy" stacks of 6-7 low bandits show up. I am at 8 units in one army and 4 units in another army (the 2nd army is moving to engage the south guys around some settlement so I can get the reinforcements. The 8 unit army has to face 6 guys and 4 garrisson and my army composition is crap as they have a lot of horses and I have a lot of bows.

Did I make a mistake and the DLC starting era is for "veterans" ?
Are the surrounding lords scripted to be passive instead of moving on me like a pack of wolves? They are gobling down my neighbors, which means my economy will take another big hit as I may lose my 400 trade income.
It is downright brutal. It is not insurmountable but it is not easy, not by any measure!

Should I restart in the 3K period instead?

[alhoon]

Anyone?

[Dismounted Feudal Knight]

3k is frankly a very slow game for TWC and has hardly any audience here (even in general it seems that way). Replies will likely be delayed if they come at all in this case: your insights will ultimately be what other people end up finding with the same question if you've already looked it up and haven't found something of use elsewhere. If the campaign was flagged as easy (relatively, in starting position) perhaps your hurdle is being too ambitious in othersettings? I'm not familiar with 3k but it may have altered the difficulty scaling and playing with that would be an option until you have your bearings. DLC campaigns tend to expect higher competency than the base game but it shouldn't be prohibitively difficult to open with for someone of your long-term experience around the series. I know this is extremely broad, hopefully someone with specialized knowledge will come across this.

[alhoon]

Anyone wondering: I am restarting this campaign for the 3rd time. I carried on for ~30 turns with few issues on the previous re-run but I have a more expensive army than I can afford that is much smaller than I need to conquer. A settlement I lost was conquered by my allies so I cannot take it back and the settlements of the enemy group are too tough for my army.
Apparently, I needed to hung back and turtle for longer, letting the armies of my allies to take the brunt of the enemy forces and then attack the weakened enemy. Instead of me weakening the enemy so my allies would benefit.

The situation IS NOT easy. Sure, very reliable (at least at the time) allies march through my land (tresspassing buttholes but eh) and fight enemies. But I expect that some of them may turn as the Han Empire not-so-slowly crumbles around us. If you want to push in the lands taken by the Yellow Turbans you need a good army and unless you turtle, you cannot afford a good army.
And the Rebels have better forces than you cause you because you get your good forces after gaining titles (Marquis etc).


Sooooo... for everyone wondering: Turtle and develop. Fight defensively which is kinda what the missions tell you to do. Let your allies take the fight to the enemy and snip in if and when you can. I doubt the allies can hold against what I see gathering up North anyway.

[alhoon]

Let your allies take the fight to the enemy and snip in if and when you can. I doubt the allies can hold against what I see gathering up North anyway.

And I was right.
They did not. For everyone reading this, long after the entire Imperial China has turned to Yellow Dust where our bones are bleached by the tears of our orphans...

After you develop, do not wait! Start stamping out Yellow Turbans else they will become TOO powerful. Once they are entrenched in a region, Fervor would make it insanely hard to fight them there. The Yellow Turbans WILL reach you if you play opportunistically and wait for the others to be gobbled by them. And then you will find yourself fighting a huge alliance with several factions.

I am above water, for the time, but the ebb is turning slowly. When the Yellow Turbans have 15 settlements spread 3 here and 4 there, it is pffft. You hit them, sell the land, move on before they show up again.
When they have 10 commanderies together, you will be hard pressed to control the spread of the Rebellion from there. And in my game, they have now 49 settlements. 35 of them in the north. A block that is beyond me to ever take back and all I can do is slow them as they approach my lands.

[alhoon]

Fourth attempt at the campaign, about to commence. "Easy" faction my butt... Who decides on the difficulty of those starting locations?
Furthermore there are mechanics in the game that you are not aware of and you have to learn the tricks of. This happens in all games, with S2TW being the worst offender with the "and suddenly the entire world declares war on you for the lulz" and R2TW being the most benign. But this game is harder.

At the time, it seems better game overall, with more things to do. But perhaps this is because it is a new game for me, with enough new things to keep me interested. It is quite early for me to tell.


Anywaaaay, hints for the uninitiated:
Armies: Sure, soldiers are useful. But generals are FREE UPKEEP. 2 weak heroes in your army, pushovers, will kill as many people as a unit. So, whenever you can, hire a general and do not give him more soldiers! What I mean is that sure an army with 3 heroes and 18 units is better than an army with 3 heroes and 6 units. But it is also 3 times more expensive. And an army with 3 heroes and 6 units is significantly better than an army with 1 hero and 6 units. And if the hero is not a pushover but someone that can really fight? Lu Bu for example? Lol.
Result: Have your "main" army and have a small army of 3 heroes and 6 units trailing it.

PS. The AI knows this. When it cannot afford large armies, it keeps heroes. Also if you try to make a custom battle with like 7000 coins, the AI will put in 6 veterans in the army and 3-4 units.

[alhoon]

The short version of what happened before I start venting my sorrow:
Fired up the first ever 3K campaign for a game I had sitting for several years. I go for Mandate of Heaven to start early and try to keep the Han together (Remember that, important detail).
I pick up an "easy to start!" faction, Liu Chong. I get very decent and large province, a good general, a loyal friend and comrade and some nasty bandits to defeat for lots of mission money and experience. "Excellent!" I say. "It seems it will be indeed easy!" How funny that seems now...
Fast forward 5 failed campaigns later (read previous posts if you care), and using exploits, save-scumming and following guides to make it in that "Easy" mode, I finally made it. No, it is not a breeze but I am actually in a very good position. I am challenged but secure. The Han disintegration script has fired correctly, the Yellow Turbans are not on my doorstep with 4 armies while I have one etc.

Situation around turns 100-105:
- I have been kicked out of the coalition I was in by ####ing Cao Cao. I will remember that when the time comes. Don't you worry, you smug bastard...
No, seriously, that stung. I had fond feelings about the pixels that composed the pieces of code I was in a coalition with. Well, except of Cao Cao.
- I have two large self-made vassals and one small one*.
- The Yellow Turbans hold a lot of land, endless armies and they are very powerful, but manageable. (or so I thought. )
- Dong Zhuo has died by event as in the Romance stories.
- His sons, Dong Min and his brother had a nice civil war and I don't know if that was scripted or not.
- Dong Min has the Emperor captive and has a ton of favor from the Imperials.
- I am a financial superpower, thank's to the Emperor, that is my distant cousin BTW.**
How I got the Yellow Turbans contained:
- Thanks to the Emperor's 30% down to salaries, that he spams, and the money I get from defeating armies, I am rolling in cash.
- If 2-3 armies are wiped out (yes, it can happen, the YT are not a joke, they can take down 2 stacks + 3 extra heroes at times) I can quickly replenish them. Thanks to the Emperor, my buddy, my armies replenish very fast and I can recruit the forces at much lower prices (on top of the lower salaries).
- The Yellow Turbans, at war with half the map, are loath to make new enemies. So they do not attack the lands of my vassals! What that means is that I take land from the rebels, develop it a bit with the money I save from the Emperor and throw it at my vassals. When my vassals say "We would like to join you at this war, boss!" I tell them "No! You sit there, make money and give me my cut, while I fight from your lands." <== as a note, YOU CAN recruit forces if your armies are in the lands of your vassals and replenishment in a vassal's land is nearly as fast as in your own land.
- North China Members of my coal- sorry, former coalition, are fighting (and slowly losing) against the Yellow Turbans in different fronts. Dong Min (yes, I am was at the same coalition as the son of the tyrant and the guy in control of my buddy the Emperor. Don't judge me. He was strong and I need the favor of the Emperor) is getting the worst of it. I fight in the center of the huge area the Yellow Turbans control (after all, I hide inside my vassals so it's not an issue for me to be surrounded).
- I am the only one that makes gains. The Rebellion of the Yellow Turbans is losing ground where I fight with my 7 Emperor-supported armies and winning elsewhere. They had 44 settlements when I first headed North, went all the way to 53 and now hold 50. I have liberated over a dozen of settlements and they still hold 50.
- I finally, finally managed to extinguish one of the 4 core Yellow Turban factions AND I had one more of the brothers assassinated. Thus, there's only one of the Zhang brothers remaining with his ridiculous stats etc. The other brother's faction is still there but without their boss they are less of a threat.

* What I mean is that in 3K you can hand over some of your lands to an administrator and create a friendly vassal faction that will adore you. Will they betray me in the future? I have no idea but so far, they are loyal. I make more money from them through trade and vassal fees than if I held those areas. One of the vassals is the aforementioned loyal friend that gifted me an awesome crossbow at the beginning of the campaign. Really touching as our special units are crossbows and they start at +3 ranks (think silver chevrons in previous games) although chevrons in 3K are not as impressive as in RTW or M2TW.

** The Emperor, may he live forever, is absolutely awesome. I am talking about things like "Oh, I saw your food went to -1 for one turn. Here is a decree to force the other slackers to give you +10 food." And "I see you're running a kind of tab with those 7 armies fighting the Yellow Turbans. Here's a huge replenishment bonus and a -30% in the upkeep of your forces for 6 turns. And once those turns end, I will of course repeat that boon. And again."
There's something called "satisfaction" in this game. Similar to R2TW and Attila Mechanics but much better codified and understandable, it is how loyal your general is to you. Unlike M2TW loyalty is important in this game. The Emperor's favor gives a +10 satisfaction and a bonus to public order which helps a lot in freshly conquered regions and also a significant bonus to fight corruption, like -10% corruption or something. Corruption is the money you lose from the taxes etc.


and then...


Turn 106 and the reason I need to vent.


I hit end turn. I get a message:
Yellow Turbans successfully stormed the capital of Dong Min, where the Emperor was. The Emperor, my buddy, the reason I did so well and that I am swimming in cash, the reason I have generals with 100 satisfaction, the reason I have just 4% corruption despite being a large faction, the reason my vassals are not facing (many) rebellions in lands that are awash with Yellow Turban rabble-rousers ... is gone!!!!
Remember: I started the campaign with the goal to restore the Han and the Emperor. I have been trying that for 68 hours. And the Emperor has been stunningly awesome to me for the past 20 turns that he is around.
And now... he's gone. I frantically load the previous couple of turns hoping that something will go different. Again and again. But the result is the same every time. Dong Min's area is already beset with rebels while his forces have already been beaten by the Yellow Turbans or are fighting elsewhere. I am toooo far to do anything about it. I tried to give him more money and food thinking he may reduce taxes or hire more troops, but it didn't work. Nor it could, realistically, as the rebels were already gathering armies when I load and his forces are faaar from the capital. Trust me, I know. I have bribed a couple of his generals to act as my spies. I know where their forces are and at what state they are. His "good" force, Lu Bu is a deadly machine, is like 5 turns march from the capital, or more.

The Han Empire is truly, irrevocably gone at this point. The Yellow Turbans have not win the campaign (they have to take a specific city to fulfil that) but they have managed to overthrow the Han.
In two turns, the imba bonuses to my replenishment and the -30% to salaries will go away. The satisfaction bonuses are gone and now a couple of my generals are ... suspect (I am not the only one that can hire dissatisfied generals as spies you know...). Public order in a couple of my commanderies, in my heartland, suddenly took a dive and I could face rebellions in 7-8 turns. And my army is far far away. Which means I have to keep "an army slot" open so that I won't face the same fate as that idiot Dong Min that lost the Emperor.
LOST the Emperor!

Now, we're not Warlords of the Han fighting (opportunistically in many cases) to restore the Empire and raise in prominence with the new Han Empire. We're like those pesky European nations in M2TW. We have some common goals and stuff but nothing to unite us except our enemies. OK, it's not those barbarians in the holy land, but an insane rebellion in the North that threatens to swallow everything (and took the Emperor with it). But that's it.


Alas, I honestly feel the hit. I will miss the Emperor's huge bonuses . I suddenly feel like I kinda lost the campaign and I certainly lost my biggest benefactor in the game.
After I am done grieving I will probably go for what the game has been telling me to do since like turn 50: Make an Empire of my own. Why not at this point? The Han are dead. There WILL BE three kingdoms and the Han will not be one of them. Why not me?

[alhoon]

This game kinda makes the stories.

Liu Chong starts the campaign with a loyal friend called Luo Jun, who becomes chancellors and gives you an awesome crossbow. He was also a veteran so he had good talents and was good in combat so I had him in my main army. For about 100 turns, I won many battles with Luo Jun having him paired in the same army as Liu Chong. As I have mentioned, I have married Liu Chong's sun with the "Bandit Queen", I don't remember her name. She is an AWESOME warrior but I couldn't have her in the same army as Luo Jun because they chaffed with each other (they didn't like each other and that causes problems for both).
Eventually, I granted Luo Jun his own faction, with several agricultural commanderies, making him one of my vassals. The 3rd one I think. As mentioned, the Emperor soon died so I gifted my friend more meh-land to avoid corruption going to high, making him a nice strong faction.

So far so good. At about turn 145, 29 campaign years, Liu Chong dies, 70 years old. The Bandit Queen (that Luo Jun disliked I remind you) becomes faction leader. End of an era, beginning of another era. By coincidence, the next turn after Liu Chong died, I could claim the title of Empress for my faction Leader. And I did.
Now, in 3KTW, the moment you proclaim yourself emperor, two more emperors raise to oppose you from the two most powerful factions. I.e. the titular "Three Kingdoms". The "Kingdom of Chong" was my kingdom under the Empress that started her career as a bloodthirsty gang-leader, captured, put to service, escaped, run to my faction, married the son of the Prince, became heir, Duchess and now Queen (styling herself Empress but in-game is queen rank).
The second kingdom was that of Wei: Cao Cao. The guy that kicked me out of my coalition (and historically one of the 3 kingdoms). He is far far away.
The third kingdom is... I kid you not: Luo Jun ! ! ! The loyal sidekick of the Prince of Chen, that raised to his favorite vassal and thus was awarded with land and favorable deals and the guy that didn't like the Bandit Queen. THAT is the 3rd most powerful faction and the one that raised to oppose the claims of the Bandit Queen to the Imperial throne!

Now, in Three Kingdoms Total War, when one proclaims himself Emperor, all alliances and deals with the other Emperors immediately end. In the Case of Cao Cao, I stopped sending him food.
In the case of Luo Jun? His vassalage ended. And in 3KTW, "ending the vassalage" = war.
The Kingdom of Chen is at war with the Kingdom of Luo over who has the best claim to the throne!

Now, most of this is game code, but can you see the story unfolding here? The moment Liu Chong closes his eyes, strife starts and 2 months later, when his daughter-in-law claims the Imperial throne, the other favorite of the late Liu Chong stands to oppose her. Look, he will be crashed cause I am x4 more powerful than he is, give or take. And my land surrounds him with 3 armies marching in while he starts with one. And my other vassals auto-declared war with him. But it is a fitting end to Liu Chong's and Luo Jun's story, for him to die at the hands of the woman he despised, daughter in law of the man he loyally served for 30 years.

[alhoon]

OK, I finished my first 3KTW campaign!!!

Zheng Jiang has a great "+50% income from tributaries". So I was making vassals left and right. It was a bit of an issue to keep them not-unhappy some times but it was doable.
In short, after some time that I had him practically boxed in, Lu bu (he had taken over Dong Zhuo's faction after the death of Dong Min) Declared War on me while I was cleaning Yellow Turbans from the Northwest. That was not exactly a surprise so I had the armies and cash at hand to deal with him without issues. Honestly, the Yellow Turbans were still a greater challenge than Lu Bu. The YT had crap army at the time, but endless hordes.
Anyway, while dealing with those, I sneaked an army + 3 heroes aaaaaaaaaall the way to the southern point of the map. Why? There were some looters there. And their provinces ended RIGHT NEXT to Cao Cao's Seat (he is an emperor). Cao Cao was consolidating his empire to... an Empire, had the Han Empire as vassals and a few others and some Imperial subjects that were next to my borders. It would be a looong war to go down there the honest and direct way.

By taking the provinces not-exactly next to his, I could bring 7 armies, Seven FULL armies. Eventually, I took the province next to his capital and then ... the "issues" started. DOWs from a few friends of Cao Cao started showing up. Deals falling through. Etc. I don't know if it was Cao Cao or his friends were really pissed (since I was a huge, aggressive faction competing with their Emperor for who is the real Emperor), but diplomatically, it was heading towards a "Realm Divide" situation, sooner than later.
But...
when I made my move to take the province next to his I had the armies there already. Thus, barely 3 turns after I had a border with him, 3 armies crossed the river, 2 went up from the sea. Zheng Jian (now level 5 and with everything gold) and a bunch of 7 level heroes with a lot of silver and gold stuff, led those armies to break a bunch of agreements and declare war.
I got his capital in that swift, treacherous strike and because of the 3KTW gameplay, if an Emperor loses his seat, his Empire dissolves and he is downgraded to king. Thus, with that one sudden strike, Cao Cao lost his Empire BEFORE he could act and call his allies to war.

Not that it would matter anyway...
When Cao Cao's capital fell to Zheng Jiang I had all three seats. Through vassals and my own empire, I owed 106 settlements. Well, the "Unification of China" is at 95 settlements. Which means... I won the campaign the moment the capital fell.
I may continue Post-victory, but really, I have 7 armies in his undefended heartland, loyal vassals to block his armies from reaching me. And with a little money, the "Han Empire Holdings" readily agreed to become my vassals. Following that win, his former Imperial subjects don't seem to have ill will towards me. I am the legitimate Emperor after all. Thus, it is Cao Cao and his remaining vassals. Unless I buy off those vassals. Thus, I can very easily crush Cao Cao.