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Thread: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

  1. #1

    Default Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    I haven't got the list of "acceptable to the period vanilla units" yet, but to make a point on (rather against) the "ranged & horse"-only armies that may be the result of this process I've got a little picture to show:



    So warfare in those times wasn't only musket, pike and ultra-heavy knights, but also "heavy" (but unarmored) assault infantry in hand to hand combat.

    Actually this was one of the ideas I was toying with - ie to take the standard landsknecht pikemen and arm them with double-handed great swords (doppelsoldner) and arquebuses => two more merc units to be recruited throughout western europe


    PS: check out the site of these guys, really informative about the age of landsknechts
    http://www.st-max.org/

  2. #2

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    I was also thinking to replace the axemen (not polearms, but axemen) with a sabre infantry, the kind you would see men fencing with, like the thinner swords...

    I might be uneducated on this, but wasn't the sabre the replacement of heavier swords?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    I might be uneducated on this, but wasn't the sabre the replacement of heavier swords?
    Hmmm.... I don't think sabers are very appropriate in this era, but I'm hardly an expert on renaissance swordsmanship.

    The idea I have is that apart from the ultra-heavy double-handed great swords that were really prominent in the late 15th-early 16th century, the longsword pretty much survived as the favorite melee weapon of most warriors of good standing (esp. in the north of europe) and the original rapiers (really heavy things, nothing like the "needle-thin" rapiers of the late 17th-18th cent) began to become prominent (starting from Italy/Spain etc).

    Check out Talhoffer's fehtbuch to see what I mean by a "longsword" (didn't look like, say, the crusader-era broad-swords). Also for rapier fight I had seen a nice Italian manual from the early 16th cent but I don't remember the name. I think there was a reenactment guild called AEMMA (or something like that) that may have some online material for sword model reference. I'll go scavenge a bit and see what I can dig out...


    EDIT: Oh I forgot... Axemen are probably quite relevant to this age as far as eastern european factions are concerned. I seem to remember a good collection of axes in some polish armory museum from exactly that period, plus I heard that axes and maces were in use as levy infantry (maybe even cavalry !!!) weapons even up to the Napoleonic wars!!! For example I left Croat Axemen in for the Hungarians....
    Last edited by justme; January 31, 2007 at 03:13 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    I also want to add in a better looking polearm, such as halberds, and perhaps a more ferocious looking pike.

    My main concern is to be able to add enough pikes and halberds so we can make them the center of the battles. And impliment the ai to use stakes, pikes, halberds, and guns effectively.

    Luckily with the Darth Vader's battle ai, the ai will come to you if you outnumber them in missiles.
    Original Creator of Renaissance Total War (MTW2)
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Ok, here goes the list of vanilla units that are (or at least I feel they are) appropriate for the time period covered by this mod (I assume 1493/1494 to 1555 time line with 4 turns per year)

    Faction: England

    City recruitment: Bill Militia (armor upgraded), Heavy Bill Militia (armor upgraded), Arquebusiers and Archer Militia
    Castle recruitment: Retinue longbowmen, heavy billmen, noble men-at-arms (armor upgraded) - optional also the household infantry (dismounted english knights with full armor upgrades)
    Artillery recruitment: Culverin, bombard, mortar (I left optional the ribauld)
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, Gun Holk, Holk (cog optional)
    Unique unit: Demi-lancers (recruit with military academy)

    NOTE: archery in general was beginning to fade away following the war of the two roses... The feeling I have is that although arquebuses and handgonnes became more and more the norm, you could still get some units armed with crossbows and bows - but not many and not the most professional types! So I only left militia archers (more historical) and the retinue longbowmen (I think less historical, as archery turned to something more of a sport). Also those dismounted english knights only look in period if upgraded to the fullest and even then they should prolly become extinct within 10-20 years from the start date (same for the noble men-at-arms)


    Faction: France

    City recruitment: Scots guards (prolly only up to the 1510s), pike militia, crossbow militia, arquebusiers
    Castle recruitment: Aventuriers, Chevalier - optional foot millers (with full armor upgrades)
    Artillery recruitment: Basilisk, culverin, bombard, grand bombard, serpentine
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, Gun Holk, Holk (cog optional)
    Unique units: Gendarmes and French Pikemen (the former through military academy, the latter I recruit in both cities and castles but I'll have to limit them to only castles)

    NOTE: I haven't really researched artillery technology per faction, England has fewer and worse quality artillery because of vanilla


    Faction: HRE

    City recruitment: Forlorne Hope, Halberd militia, pike militia, arquebusiers, crossbow militia
    Castle recruitment: Gothic knights, dismounted gothic knights, reiters, zwei handers
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, cannon, grand bombard, bombard, serpentine
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, Gun Holk, Holk (cog optional)
    Unique unit: what? you want more????


    That's the first batch of rosters
    Last edited by justme; January 31, 2007 at 01:15 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Important note before I go on: the rosters I propose are already implemented in my version of the EDB, I'll pass it around if we all agree on this as the starting point (after which we'll have to add things)

    Faction: Spain

    City recruitment: conquistadores, dismounted conquistadores, pike militia, arquebusiers, crossbow militia, spanish musketeers
    Castle recruitment: sword and buckler men
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, culverin, grand bombard, bombard - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Caravels, grand carrack, lanternas, war galley (cog optional)
    Unique unit: tercio pikemen (with military academy)


    NOTE: the spanish faction roster is prolly the best fit for the time line. Only problem those musketeers - they should appear very late in the cited timeframe (post 1550s), as the more primitive muskets appeared around the 1540s-1550s AFAIR (and they weren't much different to a longer and finer arquebus)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Faction: Venice

    City recruitment: cavaleria leggiera (broken lances), foot leggiera, pike militia, arquebusiers, musketeers
    Castle recruitment: venetian heavy infantry, venetian archers, stradioti - optional dismounted elmeti (dismounted italian knights - with full armor upgrades)
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, culverin, grand bombard, bombard - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, galeass, galley, war galley
    Unique unit: no more uniques

    NOTE: again the musketeers are a bit of a problem


    Faction: Milan (instead of Genoa )

    City recruitment: cavaleria leggiera (broken lances), foot leggiera, pike militia, arquebusiers, musketeers, famiglia ducale (with full armor upgrades) - I also allowed them to recruit Genoese crossbow militia, just because I gave them Genoa as a province (however this is completely a-historical, as neither the unit fits the timeframe nor did Milan own Genoa at the time)
    Castle recruitment: optional dismounted elmeti (dismounted italian knights - with full armor upgrades)
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, culverin, grand bombard, bombard - optional rimbauld and monster rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, lanternas, galley, war galley
    Unique unit: the famiglia ducale above

    Faction: The Papal States

    City recruitment: Swiss guard, cavaleria leggiera (broken lances), foot leggiera, halberd militia, pike militia, arquebusiers - optional pavise crossbowmen (with full armor upgrades)
    Castle recruitment: [not yet properly implemented] swiss guard
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, culverin, bombard, mortar - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, lanternas, galley, war galley
    Unique unit: the swiss guards above


    NOTE: I forgot the papal states also have halberdiers implemented already

  8. #8

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Faction: Scotland

    City recruitment: Noble pikemen, heavy pikemen, scots pikemen
    Castle recruitment: noble swordsmen, noble pikemen, highland archers, highlanders, highland pikemen
    Artillery recruitment: culverin, mortar, bombard - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, gun holk, holk - optional cog
    Unique unit: no more uniques


    NOTE: only left out the highland rabble - optionally they can be in again


    Faction: Denmark

    City recruitment: sword staffmen, arquebusiers, norse war clerics, crossbow militia
    Castle recruitment: obudshaer
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, serpentine - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, gun holk, holk - optional cog [not properly implemented]
    Unique unit: no more uniques

    NOTE: the war clerics make me uncomfortable - but then again they've got a nice graphical look. maybe the name & description should be changed to something more realistic


    Faction: Poland (not Lithuania)

    City recruitment: halberdiers, arquebusiers, hussars, spear militia, crossbow militia
    Castle recruitment: peasants (yes!), Polish guard, hussars
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, serpentine - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, gun holk, holk - optional cog [not properly implemented]
    Unique unit: no more uniques


    NOTE1: hussars should prolly be only recruitable in castle
    NOTE2: if we merge Poland and Lithuania in one faction then you get Lithuanian Archers and Lithuanian Cavalry in the castles


    Faction: Hungary (and Bohemia)

    City recruitment: halberdiers, arquebusiers, hussars, spear militia, pavise crossbowmen (with full armor upgrades)
    Castle recruitment: peasants (yes!), Royal banderium, croat axemen, Bosnian archers, Hungarian nobles
    Artillery recruitment: basilisk, bombard, serpentine - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: Carrack, lanternas, war galley - optional cog
    Unique unit: no more uniques

  9. #9

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Faction: Portugal

    City recruitment: conquistadores, dismounted conquistadores, pike militia, crossbow militia, arquebusiers, musketeers
    Castle recruitment: aventuros
    Artillery recruitment: culverin, mortar, bombard - optional rimbauld
    Ship recruitment: caravel, grand carrack, lanternas, war galley - optional cog
    Unique unit: aventuros also in cities with military academy


    NOTE: again musketeers

  10. #10

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Faction: Watassids (I've named them a khalifate but it's prolly wrong)

    City recruitment: urban militia, hand gunners, palace guards, spear militia, crossbow militia, town militia
    Castle recruitment: palace guards, palace foot guards, lamtuna spearmen, desert archers, camel corps, berber spearmen, arab cavalry, dismounted arab cavalry, tuareg camel cav, desert cavalry, granadine crossbow cavalry, granadine lancers
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, grand bombard
    Ship recruitment: baghlah, lanternas, war galley - optional dhow
    Unique unit: no more uniques


    NOTE: I don't feel comfortable with those granadine units (after 1492 no more granada, though I could suppose that the refugees from granada would be integrated into the moorish armies in morocco). Also Arab cavalry is a looong way from home (I think I'll leave them only for Egypt). Finally I can't decide if palace guards should be recruited in a city or in a castle (and of course at what level settlement)



    Faction: Turks

    City recruitment: janissary halberdiers, janissary musketeers, janissary archers, halberd militia, spear militia, town militia
    Castle recruitment: spahi, dismounted spahi, spahi lancers, ottoman infantry, peasant archers, qapaqlu
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, grand bombard, monster bombard
    Ship recruitment: baghlah, lanternas, war galley - optional dhow
    Unique unit: aren't all those jannisaries enough?


    Faction: EGypt

    City recruitment: halberd militia, spear militia, archer militia, tabbardariyya (sp?), Nubian arquebusiers
    Castle recruitment: desert archers, nubian archers, peasant archers, arab cavalry, dismounted arab cavalry, desert cavalry, mamluks, mamluk archers, royal mamluks
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, grand bombard
    Ship recruitment: baghlah, lanternas, war galley - optional dhow
    Unique unit: lots of mamluks...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Faction: Mongols

    City recruitment: mongol horse archers, spear militia, town militia
    Castle recruitment: mongol heavy lancers, dismounted lancers, mongol light lancers, mongol foot archers, peasant archers, mongol heavy archers, dismounted heavy archers, mongol infantry, khan's guard
    Artillery recruitment: rocket launchers
    Ship recruitment: dhow
    Unique unit: no more uniques


    Faction: Timurids

    City recruitment: halberd militia, spear militia, town militia, hand gunners
    Castle recruitment: mongol heavy lancers, dismounted lancers, peasant archers, mongol heavy archers, dismounted heavy archers, khan's guard
    Artillery recruitment: cannon, bombard, grand bombard
    Ship recruitment: dhow
    Unique unit: none


    NOTE: I don't feel Very comfortable with the Timurid roster - maybe they shouldn't be so "mongol" anymore... for now I'll leave it as it is though

  12. #12

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Now that the unit rosters for the vanilla factions are listed, I'd like to upload the EDB I've implemented, but I can't attach files to my posts here...

    Anyone care to propose a good way to upload it (at least to get to the other developers)???




    TO DO NOW:

    Certain factions' unit rosters are rather thin, incomplete and not very representative of the era. The fact is that most western european factions fought using the same tactics and more or less same units. Eastern European and Muslim, as well as Mongol rosters are quite alright, except certain balancing issues and such... So, what we have to do after I pass around the EDB is to:

    1) Add halberd and pike militias to all western factions. (halberd was quite a popular polearm - as things are now only the Germans, Poles (pun not intended ) and Hungarians have halberds)
    2) Decide what to do with vanilla units that were already obsolete (eg those french or english dismounted knights) and those that were to become obsolete during the course of our timeline [I've included some older units (eg dismounted english knights, etc) to keep a balance between heavy infantry, ranged and cavalry units. But the fact is that such kind of units were obsolete even before the 1493/4 start date and generally replaced by more mobile and effective units - medium/heavy infantry (see the unarmored zei hander landsknecht above or the spanish sword and buckler men)]
    3) Identify other gaps and choose more vanilla units that could fit in and complete other factions' rosters (eg I'd say that those spanish sword and buckler men could easily fit in most - if not all - western factions, reiters are also good for the french, etc)
    4) Try to create variations on existing units to further complete the rosters (eg the Landsknecht pikemen armed with double handed swords or the german reiters armed with lancers - esp. relevant after I obsolete those gothic knights after the 1520s as I plan to)
    5) Only after all that's done we can consider building completely new units to fill in whatever gaps are left


    I expect some feedback on this from RTR Fan, the new Renaissance leader (... I'm personally an EB Fan though )
    Last edited by justme; January 31, 2007 at 01:29 PM.

  13. #13
    DrIstvaan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    I've given my e-mail here, so you can send it to me, and I'll put it up on my storage site.

  14. #14
    Soulghast's Avatar RAWR!
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    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by justme View Post
    Now that the unit rosters for the vanilla factions are listed, I'd like to upload the EDB I've implemented, but I can't attach files to my posts here...

    Anyone care to propose a good way to upload it (at least to get to the other developers)???




    TO DO NOW:

    Certain factions' unit rosters are rather thin, incomplete and not very representative of the era. The fact is that most western european factions fought using the same tactics and more or less same units. Eastern European and Muslim, as well as Mongol rosters are quite alright, except certain balancing issues and such... So, what we have to do after I pass around the EDB is to:

    1) Add halberd and pike militias to all western factions. (halberd was quite a popular polearm - as things are now only the Germans, Poles (pun not intended ) and Hungarians have halberds)
    2) Decide what to do with vanilla units that were already obsolete (eg those french or english dismounted knights) and those that were to become obsolete during the course of our timeline [I've included some older units (eg dismounted english knights, etc) to keep a balance between heavy infantry, ranged and cavalry units. But the fact is that such kind of units were obsolete even before the 1493/4 start date and generally replaced by more mobile and effective units - medium/heavy infantry (see the unarmored zei hander landsknecht above or the spanish sword and buckler men)]
    3) Identify other gaps and choose more vanilla units that could fit in and complete other factions' rosters (eg I'd say that those spanish sword and buckler men could easily fit in most - if not all - western factions, reiters are also good for the french, etc)
    4) Try to create variations on existing units to further complete the rosters (eg the Landsknecht pikemen armed with double handed swords or the german reiters armed with lancers - esp. relevant after I obsolete those gothic knights after the 1520s as I plan to)
    5) Only after all that's done we can consider building completely new units to fill in whatever gaps are left


    I expect some feedback on this from RTR Fan, the new Renaissance leader (... I'm personally an EB Fan though )
    This stuff is very good, upload it somewhere. About the Halberds added to all Catholic factions, I'm working on them now.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    looking again through the list of units I think I need to make a few changes in the EDB before uploading... the changes are significant and it'll be a rather complex process. Then I'll have to test it first if it works and I'm not sure if it will be very well balanced so just stay tuned...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    where are the swedish units?
    These fine gentlemen's have thanks to their consistent idiotic posts have earned their place on my ignore list: mrmouth, The Illusionist, motiv-8, mongrel, azoth, thorn777 and elfdude. If you want to join their honourable rank you just have to post idiotic posts and you will get there in no time.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    where are the swedish units?
    I don't think there are any implemented, just as there's no swedish faction implemented... It's one of the factions that I've suggested to introduce for ver 3.0 though...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    @ Ramtha, RTR Fan & Dristvaan

    I've established as a baseline the following installation:

    A) Installed Renaissance 2.0 [Renaissance_2.0.rar]
    B) Upgraded to Renaissance 2.2 [Renaissance patch 2.2.rar]
    C) Upgraded to Renaissance 2.7 standard version [Renaissance 2.7 - bug free version.rar] (*I hope it's truly bug free* )
    D) Added Dristvaan's tweaks [Renaissance_building_and_settlement_tweaks.zip]


    That's the baseline...

    Following that I've already integrated:

    A) Names files (files: descr_names_lookup, descr_names, names) - necessary for the family trees

    B) EDB file WITH teutonic faction unit roster

    NOTE1: the teutonic roster is very limited and mostly out of timeframe
    NOTE2: the teutonic roster includes units recruitable ONLY in castles (ie nothing to recruit in their cities, see following comments on the new EDB)


    Comments on the new EDB:

    A) I propose to establish the new EDB as baseline
    B) The new EDB implements rosters per faction with vanilla units appropriate to the era (ie no added units yet)
    C) The basic concept of recruitment was to:
    i) have cities recruit ONLY militia-level units (in barracks facilities)
    ii) units that require special training are recruited in appropriate castle barrack facilities (eg arquebusiers in ranges, zwei handers in barracks, reiters in stables)
    iii) nobles and knights recruited in castles (attached to the basic building infrastructure)
    iv) units that are either "foreign", "nomadic" or "mercenary" in nature (eg those forlorn hopes, etc) are recruited in cities or castles (no definite rule here), but attached to the basic building infrastructure OR (in the case of muslim factions) to the caravan routes (eg berbers come with the caravan )

    D) I've readjusted the replenishment factor for each unit, according to its value - thus high quality heavy cavalry will appear at a rhythm of 1 in 3 turns, whereas pikemen and such will appear at a rhythm of 1 in 1.5 turns (or so) [NOTE: this adjustment is more in line with the idea of a 4 turns per year campaign, otherwise I must make increase these factors a bit]
    E) I've reactivated a few of the less spectacular units, such as peasants, to reflect a very quick levy of serfs that are called upon to defend the castle they live around - they don't replenish that fast though, so no chance of fighting armies of only peasants
    F) I have scaled the recruitment slots - the max is 8 in huge cities and fortresses [NOTE: this must be tested in combination with the slow replenishing times of units]
    G) I haven't disabled the templar guild yet
    H) I removed recruitment from most all guilds EXCEPT the Explorer's guild that will give conquistadores to Spain & Portugal. The militant order guilds can't recruit any knights and they shouldn't UNTIL the knights are reskinned (st. john's, santiago)


    @Dristvaan

    I can't find your email to send you the files Please PM it and I'll forward you the integrated files...


    I'll now start with the first step in descr_strat - family trees

  19. #19
    DrIstvaan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    Erm... The new unit roster is rather puritan. I hope we can work out with some nice unit rosters soon, as (playing with Genoa) the Mustering Hall (and upgrades), the Equestrians, etc. are literally unneccessary, and this new model makes for a selection of very few units...

  20. #20

    Default Re: Renaissance Total War Faction Unit Thread

    You're absolutely right Dristvaan

    But unfortunately those are all the vanilla units that are relevant for our time line... and I've added some that should be obsolete too There are many gaps unfortunately, but I've suggested ways to fix that and make those other barracks useful in some way

    1) Add halberd and pike militias to all western factions. (halberd was quite a popular polearm - as things are now only the Germans, Poles (pun not intended ) and Hungarians have halberds)
    2) Decide what to do with vanilla units that were already obsolete (eg those french or english dismounted knights) and those that were to become obsolete during the course of our timeline [I've included some older units (eg dismounted english knights, etc) to keep a balance between heavy infantry, ranged and cavalry units. But the fact is that such kind of units were obsolete even before the 1493/4 start date and generally replaced by more mobile and effective units - medium/heavy infantry (see the unarmored zei hander landsknecht above or the spanish sword and buckler men)]
    3) Identify other gaps and choose more vanilla units that could fit in and complete other factions' rosters (eg I'd say that those spanish sword and buckler men could easily fit in most - if not all - western factions, reiters are also good for the french, etc)
    4) Try to create variations on existing units to further complete the rosters (eg the Landsknecht pikemen armed with double handed swords or the german reiters armed with lancers - esp. relevant after I obsolete those gothic knights after the 1520s as I plan to)
    5) Only after all that's done we can consider building completely new units to fill in whatever gaps are left
    Note however that I'm still working on the descr_strat and the level of development of the settlements will actually "hide" a bit those gaps


    EDIT: This is a unit suggestion thread too... so go on, suggest units for factions so that we can fill up the rosters

    I've already suggested:

    1) pikes and halberds for all western factions
    2) sword and buckler men also for all western factions
    3) pistol reiters for France, England, Spain, Portugal (maybe other too, but note that those reiters look and act rather like a 17th cent unit)
    4) reiters armed with lances and swords (secondary) for almost all western factions
    5) lansknechts (or some lightly/un-armored equivalent) armed with double-handed swords and another variation with arquebuses
    Last edited by justme; February 02, 2007 at 05:37 AM.

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