Enemy always charges their cavalry into my line

**thomonkey** · January 28, 2007, 01:46 AM

Ive installed darth mod as many different was possible, and every time, at the beginning of the battle, bothof us have our cavalry lined up in the front,
and the enemy charges straight into my line.

any suggestions?

**thomonkey** · January 28, 2007, 03:03 AM

please can i get a little help.
ive done a clean install, then i installed the patch
installed darth mod lite using the installer.
start up custom battle, and voila cavalry charge right into my line.
seriously, every single time.

i mean, i dunno what to do, i tried using medmanager, that didn;t work.
i downloaded the darth formations, that didn't work.

when i play the game all the screens show darth mod 1.3B.

is anyone else getting this experience with 1.3B?

thanks

**Ork** · January 28, 2007, 03:47 AM

Maybe you should try the open source 13 patch which can be found in thread (((Open Source DarthMod))) - 27/1/2007. Just install it over 1.3B.

**DARTH VADER** · January 28, 2007, 04:15 AM

Yes try OS13 but pls be notified that it is a feature and medieval tactic to use cavalry first. I had enabled this tactic intentionally.
Of course it should be done correctly and timed by the AI.
If it is more aggressive than normal it may be a problem do not know.

**[Star] MockMoon** · January 28, 2007, 10:54 AM

and a realistic feature it is, this happend in the year 1302 a few miles from house....altough the tactic was used allot it was not verry effective it was always a risk to use it. Mostley it was used because they had no other choice but it was also used because the nobles could get the honour of defeating the enemy.

below you can find an (more or less) example of the french who tried this tactic in flanders
they got pwnd btw

Forces

The Flemish were primarily town militia, peasants and townsmen who were well equipped and organized; the urban militias of the time prided themselves on their regular training and preparation. They numbered about 9,000, including 400 nobles. The biggest difference from the French and other feudal armies was that the Flemish force consisted solely of infantry.
The French were by contrast a classic feudal army made up of a core of 2,500 nobles cavalry, including knights and squires. They were supported by 1,000 crossbowmen, 1,000 pikemen and up to 3,500 other light infantry, totaling around 8,000.[2] Contemporary military theory valued each knight as equal to roughly ten infantry.[3]

The Battle

After the Flemish unsuccessfully tried to take Kortrijk on July 9 and July 10, the two forces clashed on 11 July in an open field near the city.
The layout of the field, crossed by numerous ditches and streams, made it difficult for the French cavalry to charge the Flemish lines. They sent the servants to place some wood in the streams but didn't wait for this to be done. The large French infantry force led the initial attack, which went well, but French commander Count Robert II of Artois recalled them so that the noble cavalry could charge them and claim the victory. Hindered by their own infantry and the tactically sound position of the Flemish militia, the French cavalry were an easy target for the heavily-armed infantry. When they realized the battle was lost, the surviving French fled, only to be pursued over 10 km by the Flemish.
Prior to the battle, the Flemish militia had either been ordered to take no prisoners or did not understand (or care for) the military custom of asking for a ransom for captures knights or nobles; [1] Robert of Artois was surrounded and killed on the field.

**coman** · January 28, 2007, 11:32 AM

Prepare a proper defending force.

********** - missile infantry on skirmish mode
* **** ******** **** *
cav spear heavy inf spear cav

Works pretty well unless the AI has lots of cavalry.

**craziii** · January 28, 2007, 05:52 PM

I like the agressive ai, you just gotta handle it, make your heavies + spears form deeper ranks, and use your own cavalry to decimate theirs after they charge from behind, it is sweet. I don't find ai's over aggressiveness to be a problem, you have to adapt. I hope I am not jumping to conclusions since I am replying in this way thinking you are heaving trouble with cavalry.

**Ludicus** · January 28, 2007, 07:19 PM

From [Star] MockMoon:

The large French infantry force led the initial attack, which went well, but French commander Count Robert II of Artois recalled them so that the noble cavalry could charge them and claim the victory.

from DARTH VADER:

it is a feature and medieval tactic to use cavalry first. I had enabled this tactic intentionally.

And well,in my opinion.

The French cavalry had the same behaviour (shall we say the same mistake?)
some years later in Aljubarrota (Spanish and French allied against Portuguese army),and they did it again later in Agincourt.Here they blamed the deep,soft mud battle field.In Aljubarrota they didn´t have space to charge.
So,it is really historically.

**Assmonkey3443** · January 30, 2007, 10:47 PM

And ever since, they have overcompensated for their mistakes by charging in the other direction.

**DARTH VADER** · January 31, 2007, 05:20 AM

Generally with DarthMod settings, the decisive cavalry charge can win a battle for you or the AI.
They must quickly use the momentum of space to charge or if they crample between uneasy terrain and mob of friendly/enemy units will not have their full power in their potential.

**Froggie5** · February 01, 2007, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by DARTH VADER

Generally with DarthMod settings, the decisive cavalry charge can win a battle for you or the AI.
They must quickly use the momentum of space to charge or if they crample between uneasy terrain and mob of friendly/enemy units will not have their full power in their potential.

In theory, but in the current build (OS 14) the ai is forced to essentially throw their cavalry away by charging into the player's lines at the outset of the battle when the defenders are fresh and morale is high. Granted they do cause numerous casualties, but there is really no chance that the player's lines will break right at the outset of the battle. The result is suicidal ai generals and/or the destruction of the ai's heavy cavalry in short order.

I understand your reasoning in forcing this behavior, but IMHO vanilla cavalry behavior (harass missile units and then crash into the player's lines later in the battle when they have a greater chance of routing units) is much more effective and provides more of a challenge for the player.

I have played numerous battles with the battle files in OS 14 and enjoy most of the aspects of your work, but for myself the cav behavior has made it too easy (esp the suicidal generals, which were a huge complaint in early versions of RTW). I would encourage you to reconsider your cavalry settings.

Many thanks for all your efforts.

**NoRbAk** · February 01, 2007, 08:53 AM

@Froggie

I agree with you mostly.

Early and heroic cavalry charges are in fact true historical, and suicide Generals... well this might be quite historical too !!!!

Problem is the same as usual: historical accuracy vs playability.

I agree that late and flanking cav charges would make it much harder to win, and Suicide Generals happen like 95% of the time, and then the battle is lame...

Will post Darth about Suicide Generals and about improving cav flanking ...

TY!

**thomonkey** · February 01, 2007, 08:45 PM

froggie 5 hit it right on the button. Winning battles is so damn easy now.
i just line up my infantry in the beginning, and the enemy charges all of their cavalry into my line. What happens? they kill a few men, but all their cavalry is dead, then i proceed to own them.

i think that vanilla cavalry is better because they flank, and don't charge head on into spears.

these suicide cavalry units are really ruining the battles for me.
i never lose battles now.

please fix this, and stop the AI from suiciding their cavalry.

thanks

**DARTH VADER** · February 03, 2007, 05:20 AM

Since it is a feature as I have explained I will see if this can be balanced. Medieval tactics were just like this. And with Darth Cavalry it is a success in many occasions.

But will certainly look to balance it if it needs to.

**fran** · February 03, 2007, 07:55 AM

hmm guys
i dont see this tactic as ineffective

in fact, since talked about here I often adopted it myself

say I have an army of a few knight units, and the rest of archers/infantry

i line up my knights, then archers, then infantry

slam the knights into the enemy formation right away, causing extream pain and hurt and destruction to foward infantry lines, then withdraw the knights after some fighting (naturally, only about 1/3rd actually get to survive and withdraw if the enemy is strong)

then the archers lay arrows while enemy aproach, and finally my infantry makes short work of the rest of the enemies quite mutiliated army
by that time ofcourse the archers move away and fire from sides and the surviving cavaly is used to flank or run down enemies or counter enemy cav. or something

conclusion: a proper head on charge by a few units of cav . (say 4 units lined up in 3 deep formation) can devastate an army ...

**TTSEC** · February 03, 2007, 01:50 PM

I use the hammer and nail method. I charge with infantry, and then charge calvary to hammer my infantry into the enemy formation.

**DARTH VADER** · February 04, 2007, 11:47 AM

test my latest formation war pack 3.8 over DarthMod or any other mod to tell me if you like it best.

**gunnigolfer** · February 05, 2007, 04:52 PM

I like the cavalry charge thing except when the enemy cavalry charges straight into my pike wall. In that case 70% of the die instantly and 5% om my men die. I dont think that is a very effective tactic. Isn't it possible to make the ai charge into everything but pike walls, or pike and spearwalls, rather flank it or stay. That would be sweeet.