Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[antaeus]

If the disease starts overwhelming health facilities in the US then you can credibly claim that it is out of control. Right now, it is being managed.

Shall I start compiling anecdotes from hospital staff in the worst affected counties? Managed is a relative term and it is definitely not consistent across the entire country for all of the last 6 weeks. Either way. We can come back to this point in the conversation in 6 months. Where the death toll in 6 weeks is 71,000. I won't take any satisfaction if I end up being right in my cynicism. I truly hope you are the one who is right.

[Love Mountain]

If the disease starts overwhelming health facilities in the US then you can credibly claim that it is out of control. Right now, it is being managed.

Poorly.

[PointOfViewGun]

Lol, South Korea is reporting zero new cases on daily basis without ever having done any lockdowns. Everything operated normally, even the crowded subways where you can't move an inch because people are pressed against you. I was there at the height of the pandemic. South Koreans are mocking us for our exaggerated and poorly organized responses. Many of my Korean friends are saying that we should no longer look to the West as a model.

We have already discussed South Korea and how their response was fast, intrusive and thorough with major cultural factors in play. It's not a model that could have been utilized in every country. There is no point in comparing South Korea with any other country. You know this. We know this. Why bring it up?

[Cope]

Poorly.

No, not particularly. The US continues to outperform Belgium, the UK, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden and Ireland in terms of deaths per million. Though I'm sure you'll be writing to the governors of the worst affected states in the America, all of whom (with the exception of the governor for Massachusetts) are Democrats, to voice your discontent.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, not particularly. The US continues to outperform Belgium, the UK, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden and Ireland in terms of deaths per million. Though I'm sure you'll be writing to the governors of the worst affected states in the America, all of whom (with the exception of the governor for Massachusetts) are Democrats, to voice your discontent.

They're also the most densely populated states, are they not?

[Phier]

They're also the most densely populated states, are they not?

My blue state spent 50 million dollars on a emergency clinic for this which they have sense dismantled since there is no need for it, at all, even a little.

[Pontifex Maximus]

My blue state spent 50 million dollars on a emergency clinic for this which they have sense dismantled since there is no need for it, at all, even a little.

but, but, but PeOpLE ArE LiTerAllY DyIng!11!

[PointOfViewGun]

My blue state spent 50 million dollars on a emergency clinic for this which they have sense dismantled since there is no need for it, at all, even a little.

You mean a field hospital? They're a precaution. No government should wait for the healthcare system to collapse to build one. If it was dismantled without being used much then they simply got lucky.

but, but, but PeOpLE ArE LiTerAllY DyIng!11!

If those governments didn't act and the virus turned out to be deadlier you'd be typing the following?

but, but, but iT WoUld CoSt tOo MuCh!11!

[Pontifex Maximus]

For every death from Covid-19 in the US, 600 people are out of work. The cost analysis is clear. We could have had a pandemic, or a pandemic and an economic depression. Thanks in large part to our ORANGE MAN BAD colleagues, we now have both. What do we know for sure we have gained from this? We have mostly saved the lives of pensioners above the age of 70.

[PointOfViewGun]

For every death from Covid-19 in the US, 600 people are out of work. The cost analysis is clear. We could have had a pandemic, or a pandemic and an economic depression. Thanks in large part to our ORANGE MAN BAD colleagues, we now have both. What do we know for sure we have gained from this? We have mostly saved the lives of pensioners above the age of 70.

Interesting how you're trying to build this nonexistent world where everything happens to spite Trump. If someone coughs you try to throw jabs like "ORANGE MAN BAD" when there wasn't really any connection. Lock down measures were not enacted to oppose Trump in some way. Heck, it wasn't limited to Democrats either. You consider Texas governor Greg Abbot as one of those? Interesting how you prefer to distort reality in such a fundamental level to keep this delusion alive. There was no choice between pandemic and pandemic with economic depression. People would not react as if everything was OK if there was no lock down measures. Businesses would still hurt immensely. Maybe even more given the much higher death toll. Basically, the choice you had was a pandemic with less death and a pandemic with more death.

[antaeus]

For every death from Covid-19 in the US, 600 people are out of work. The cost analysis is clear. We could have had a pandemic, or a pandemic and an economic depression. Thanks in large part to our ORANGE MAN BAD colleagues, we now have both. What do we know for sure we have gained from this? We have mostly saved the lives of pensioners above the age of 70.

Yay. another low empathy post.

Had you not shut down, you would have had a dead person for every 3 unemployed. We were all having a financial shock, whether we liked it or not.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Interesting how you're trying to build this nonexistent world where everything happens to spite Trump. If someone coughs you try to throw jabs like "ORANGE MAN BAD" when there wasn't really any connection. Lock down measures were not enacted to oppose Trump in some way. Heck, it wasn't limited to Democrats either. You consider Texas governor Greg Abbot as one of those? Interesting how you prefer to distort reality in such a fundamental level to keep this delusion alive. There was no choice between pandemic and pandemic with economic depression. People would not react as if everything was OK if there was no lock down measures. Businesses would still hurt immensely. Maybe even more given the much higher death toll. Basically, the choice you had was a pandemic with less death and a pandemic with more death.

Refine your post as to the issues of federalism and I will bother to respond. Like you, as you purport, I am sick of framing every issue with regards to Trump.

Yay. another low empathy post.

Had you not shut down, you would have had a dead person for every 3 unemployed. We were all having a financial shock, whether we liked it or not.

My post is very empathetic. Yours is low empathy. You would rather see 600 families with zero income to ensure a senior citizen survives another x-65 years.

[antaeus]

My post is very empathetic. Yours is low empathy. You would rather see 600 families with zero income to ensure a senior citizen survives another x-65 years.

A 70 year oldwith one contributing factor who dies loses on average 12 years of their life. 1/3 of which is productive working life. A 60 year old with one contributing factor who dies loses 29 years of life, 2/3 of which is productive working life.

As my argument stated, without intervention you would have a death for every 3 unemployed. That's 10 million extra deaths, 10 million times 12-29 years of family life, work life, babysitting, walks in the park etc lost. You think your economy comes out of that without being wrecked, you're mad.

Not to mention that there are 200 odd countries out there, all of whom are doing some sort of shut down. Without the kind of global government socialist policy control that Orange man fans hate, your globe will do as it pleases anyway.

Your economy is screwed either way. At least with intervention 10 million people are alive to help put it back together.

You on the other hand, seem to be suggesting allowing 10 million people to die. And then accuse me of being low empathy. Sickening.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Please provide scientifically verified data that supports your prognosticated death toll. Your entire premise is flawed to a laughable degree.

[Infidel144]

Your economy is screwed either way. At least with intervention 10 million people are alive to help put it back together.

Where are you getting 10 million from?
Even the Imperial College model only said 2.2 million (without 'intervention') and 1.2 million with 'intervention'.

[antaeus]

Please provide scientifically verified data that supports your prognosticated death toll. Your entire premise is flawed to a laughable degree.

I'm working with the likely rates of infection and death from modelling produced by the Imperial College's MRC Centre for Global infectiouI Disease Analysis. The same widely published modelling that at the time produced policy shift in both British and orange-man governments.

Which data projections are you using to show that there will be no economic collapse if coronavirus was allowed to roam free?

[antaeus]

Where are you getting 10 million from?
Even the Imperial College model only said 2.2 million (without 'intervention') and 1.2 million with 'intervention'.

Yeah I just double checked. My mistake from memory.

Sorry pontifiex. Divide my figures by just over 4. I'm getting too old.

[Infidel144]

That would be Ferguson's work, the same who predicted 65,000 deaths from swine flu and 50,000 from mad cow.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...IwY?li=BBoPWjQ

And is now out after, hmm..., not following 'lockdown' rules:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52553229

[Cyclops]

No, not particularly. The US continues to outperform Belgium, the UK, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Sweden and Ireland in terms of deaths per million. Though I'm sure you'll be writing to the governors of the worst affected states in the America, all of whom (with the exception of the governor for Massachusetts) are Democrats, to voice your discontent.

The US is a special case, as the biggest economy and the most connected nation. If you treat the fifty states as separate countries you get a clearer picture.

New York is a mess. Privatised health, wealth disparity, global connectedness, population density and partisan leadership combine horribly there: the health system seems to be overwhelmed. I have seen reports of people dying in their homes because they are too poor to attend a hospital, of ambulance teams shortening CPR times so they can move on to the next case, hospital staff protesting profit-based health strategies in a pandemic etc etc.

Its easy to cherry pick these stories or slant them. Other states have a better handle on COVID 19 (albeit sabotaged by states failing to cooperate with one another or the Feds, probably the biggest weakness in the US system). Taken as one polity the US isn't doing badly at all but its fair to say New York is a disaster, and it was a disaster waiting to happen. De Blasio is to blame, but so is the entire roster of leadership going back decades.

I criticise Trump's demolition of Obama's pandemic preparations, but Obama's preparations were underfunded and half arsed: in the absence of state cooperation they could hardly be more effective than Trump's in any case. I love that Trump is going after China, and while I hate that he's running the silly horror movie plotline about a man made virus he's right to put blame on China for once again lying about a serious outbreak.

Its hardly fair to expect the very successful (albeit not perfect) US system to transform itself into an Asian obedience-based state system overnight because China decide to share its disease. Its fair to knock the leadership where its made the existing conditions worse, eg Trump's poor communication style or De Blasio's near treasonous lack of cooperation with the Feds.

One long term fix would be a fairer health system. The current one stinks at pandemic mitigation. The US has the best tech, the most money and a commitment to individual liberties, surely freedom from disease is a inalienable right?

[Pontifex Maximus]

I'm working with the likely rates of infection and death from modelling produced by the Imperial College's MRC Centre for Global infectiouI Disease Analysis. The same widely published modelling that at the time produced policy shift in both British and orange-man governments.

Which data projections are you using to show that there will be no economic collapse if coronavirus was allowed to roam free?

You must be devastated to learn that your imperial college has relegated you to economic isolationism and economic ruin. https://dph.georgia.gov/covid-19-daily-status-report

I mean yikes, your claims are just so tenuous, and getting even more tenuous as time goes on! as a leftist, I assume your dogmatic worship of "Science" will begin to interfere with your programming. I'm gonna just open a new packet of popcorn and sit back and watch.

On that note, I seriously have to shout out boy scout popcorn or whatever other gift basket site is selling gist basket popcorn. It is absolutely delicious and can be apolitical, give it a shot this Mother's Day. Its pretty delicious stuff