Suggestion: Ptomelaic "Felt Cataphracts"

[Rampante-Cid]

Hi! From some time ago I have been thinking that could be interesting to include a little known "special unit" of the Ptolemaic army, created by Ptolemy II specifically for his war against the kushites: felt cataphracs being both knight and horse covered completely by it except the eyes as way to protect them from the deadly effective kushite archers. Personally I think it would be great to include them in the mod as an "elite unit" to be recruited in the southern border of Egypt.

And below some historical information about them:

Texts:

Source: http://tabulaenovaeexercituum.pbwork...6762/Ptolemaic

Ptolemy II's felt-armoured cavalry Author: Duncan Head Synopsis: Allow some mercenary cavalry to be Cv (S)/Kn (I) with felt horse-armour. Under discussion - numbers involved may not merit an upgrade at the element scale of the list. See TNE message 7355 and responses Proposal: Add the following lines: Only in Nubia under Ptolemy II, in 274-260 BC: Upgrade Greek mercenary Regular Cv (O) to Reg Cv (S){DBM} or Reg Kn (I){DBMM} with front ranks on felt-caparisoned horses 0-2 Justification: The Alexandria-based Hellenistic writer Agatharchides of Knidos writes, in his "On the Erythraean Sea":

For the war against the Aithiopians Ptolemy recruited 500 cavalrymen from Greece. To those who were to fight in the front ranks and to be the vanguard - they were a hundred in number - he assigned the following form of equipment. For he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt (stolas piletas), which those of that country (hoi kata ten choran; "the natives of the country" in Burstein) call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes. (Translation Burstein p.52; frag.20, slightly modified by me.)

The passage relates to the "Aithiopian" war undertaken by Ptolemy II (282-246 BC) to defeat the Meroitic Kushite kingdom's opposition to the establishment of Egyptian elephant-hunting stations on the Red Sea coast, and the associated expansion of Egyptian influence in Nubia. The war probably took place, roughly, somewhen between 275 and 265 BC. I've chosen 274 rather than 275 as the start date to fit with an existing "step" in the published Ptolemaic list. Ptolemy equipped one hundred Greek cavalry with stolas piletas, called kasas "in the country". Stole is quite a general word for clothing or equipment, sometimes translated "robe", but also used for military equipment. In this case it is clearly used for some sort of extensive robe and horse-caparison, covering "the whole body except for the eyes". Piletos - "quilted" in Burstein's translation - derives from pilos, "felt", and means "made of felt" according to LSJ. Kasas is the accusative plural of kases, a word that Xenophon uses for a Persian saddle-cloth and in the form kassos is found in Egyptian papyri of the Ptolemaic period. The word kasopoios, a maker of kasai, also occurs in the papyri. The LSJ translates kassos as "a thick garment". That the kases was defensive equipment, rather than flowing robes intended as suitable desert clothing, is suggested by the fact that the fragment before this concerns Nubian archery and poisoned arrows; the felt caparisons were probably a response to the poisoned arrows.

Secondly, while loose robes are a common response to desert sun, I've not come across another case of such covering being extended to horses! Thirdly, and perhaps most decisively, the most likely reason for limiting the kasai to the front ranks rather than issuing them to the whole unit was if they were defensive. The proportion, 100 out of 500, adopting this armour might suggest that one front rank out of five, or two out of ten, received the additional protection. This usage of kasai appears to be Egyptian (see TNE message 7158 and subsequent discussion, or my forthcoming Slingshot article), rather than a Nubian word relating to the Ptolemaic adoption of a local defence. So what we have here is an example of an unusual Hellenistic response to specific local military conditions, a counter to poisoned arrows that might otherwise disable a cavalryman if they hit unprotected areas of either the rider or his horse (cf. Smaldone pp.50-52). Interestingly, it appears to pre-date the Seleucid adoption of full cataphract armour by 60-75 years. While we have no information on whether the felt defences actually worked in practice, it seems reasonable to assume that they had some benefit against archery. However, only part of the formation represented by the element will be protected. Greek mercenary cavalry are normally Cv (O); giving them armoured horses would make them Cv (S) in DBM. But the definition of that type doesn't explicitly cater for cases where only the front ranks of the element has the additional protection - which is part of the reason why I suggest only an optional, not a compulsory, upgrade. In DBMM, the definition of Cv (S) is more restricted; details aren't relevant here but basically you need to have a bow. The alternatives seem to be either to assume that felt protection for a quarter of the horses makes too little difference to be represented, and stick to the same Cv (O) classification as before; or to treat these troops as poorly-armoured shock cavalry, Kn (I) in DBMM, as Persian javelin-armed cavalry on part-armoured horses have now become. In DBM and DBMM an element normally represents 200-250 cavalry; if one front rank of a 4-deep formation were protected, this would mean upgrading two elements. But if the two front ranks of an eight-deep formation are involved, only one element would be upgraded as all the felt-caparisoned horse would be concentrated in the front element of a two-element-deep formation. To complicate things, this only really works well in DBM 3.0, where a second rank of Ordinary cavalry can support a Superior cavalry front rank - not in DBM 3.1 or in DBMM. The numbers also assume that the Ptolemaic list is at "normal" scale; I suspect this is appropriate for campaigns in Nubia even if the large royal armies used for big battle like Raphia would require a reduced troop scale.

References: Thanks to David Brown who originally brought this to our attention and provided the Bassett article; and to all who commented on TNE, especially Luke Ueda-Sarson. Bassett, Sherrylee R, The Death of Cyrus the Younger (Classical Quarterly NS. Vol. 49 No.2, 1999) Burstein, Stanley M, Agatharchides of Cnidus: On the Erythraean Sea (Hakluyt Society, London, 1989) Head, Duncan, "Ptolemy II's felt-armoured cavalry" - Slingshot, forthcoming. LSJ - Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon; revised and augmented throughout by Sir Henry Stuart Jones with the assistance of Roderick McKenzie (Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940); available online at the Perseus Project, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/ Smaldone, Joseph P, Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate (Cambridge University Press, 1977)


Another text

Source: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/19-gree...html?start=210


This is a little-known passage from Agatharchides of Cnidus (fragment 20), which discusses a campaign against the Aethiopians fought by Ptolemy II: For the war against the Aithiopians Ptolemy recruited 500 cavalrymen from Greece. To those who were to fight in the front ranks and to be the vanguard - they were a hundred in number - he assigned the following form of equipment. For he distributed to them and their horses stolas piletas (felt stolai), which those of that country call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes.


Duncan Head discussed this passage very thoroughly in an article in Slingshot, and I've always simply taken it to be a mention of some sort of generic covering for man and horse which served the purpose of defending against arrows (the previous paragraph mentions the poisoned arrows of the Aethiopians) as he did. But now that it has been quite well established in this thread that stole and spolas are synonyms, and that they can both be used quite specifically to describe organic cuirasses, this excerpt takes on a whole new meaning.

Thoughts?
...I haven't seen Duncan's article, but if we take stola/spolas to mean simply 'organic' body armour, generally of 'skin/rawhide/leather', then the passage seems to make sense. The 'felt stola' could be simply a felt trapper, similar to mediaeval knightly ones, which also covered the horse completely except for eyeholes.
( the "whole body except for the eyes" would be a reference to the horse's body - note that 'body' is singular, not plural so presumably does not refer to the rider).
The cavalryman with his normal equipment would already be protected against arrows. The phrase "...distributed to them and their horses.." I would interpret as in the sense of issued to the troopers for their horses.......


Pictures

Source: http://merlkir.deviantart.com/art/Pt...hract-90064405




Source: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=247630.30




Here the link of the book whit the picture: http://www.amazon.es/Le-soldat-lagid.../dp/2917747102

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

That's a very good and solid proposal, Rampante-Cid. Thank you for posting it.

Personally, I would love to see this unit in the game for the Ptolemies. Perhaps as an AOR unit in the southern Egypt, as you proposed?

I belive that in appearance they would resemble the Ethiopian Quilted Cataphracts, recently introduced in the game for the Medewi faction?

[KAM 2150]

These cataphracts of Medewi are that exact unit but we would need to add AOR entry for them if we havent already.

[Rampante-Cid]

These cataphracts of Medewi are that exact unit but we would need to add AOR entry for them if we havent already.

Except this ones were from Greek-Macedonian stock and that it would have more elements of "hellenistic equipment" than the Medewi ones. So if the influence was from the Medewi kingdom to the Ptolemaic one (and not in the other way) these Felt cataphracts had been other good example of the "pragmatism" from the Ptolemaic dynasty, adopting the military gear and units from their enemies, like centuries after when they try "to copy" the Roman legionaries.

EDIT: Ok I have just checked the original thread about the "Medewi cataphracts": http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nit-for-Medewi.

And the source with the reference about that unit: https://books.google.es/books?id=dLr...uilted&f=false.

However, in the version about the fragments of Agathakhides from the book "Huntingford, G.W.B., ed. (1980). The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, by an unknown author: With some Extracts from Agatharkhides 'On the Erythraean Sea'. London: Hakluyt Society.", the original text translated is this:

20. Agatharkhides says that Ptolemy collected five hundred horses from Greece for his war against the Aithiopians. Those that went in the front line and were exposed to danger, to the number of one hundred, he furnished with armour in the following way. He caused the horses and their riders to be dressed in felt garments, called kasas6 in those parts, which completely enveloped the whole body except the eyes.

It didn't say anywhere that the felt cataphracts were "typical" from the kushites at the time of Ptolemy II, so personally I think that the "inventors" of that unit were the Ptolemaics and not the Kushites (in fact I think the author from the book of Ptolemy II was influenced by the image of the felt knights from the Chad kingdoms and Sudan of centuries later, they were active since the Middle Ages to the XIX century!, at the time to atributte too entusiastically the creation of that unit to Medewi.)

[KAM 2150]

I toyed a bit with existing assets and this was the closest result I could get without creating new models (highly unlikely) or textures.

Let me know what you think. I would need to separate certain parts to get more hellenic stuff since at the moment armour, shirt and trousers are connected.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Maetharin]

Looking good!
Though couldn´t the chainmail face cover be retextured to be quilted?
Also, where are the Pteryges
IIRC there was some asset in DeI or AE which was just shoulder Pteryges.

[KAM 2150]

Like I wrote in my post, I only used existing stuff and armour is integrated with clothes. I would need to create new textures and separate armour parts from eachother. Someone more skilled than me would need to take over. Adding pteryges would clip with sleeves and trousers at the moment.

[Rampante-Cid]

I toyed a bit with existing assets and this was the closest result I could get without creating new models (highly unlikely) or textures.

Let me know what you think. I would need to separate certain parts to get more hellenic stuff since at the moment armour, shirt and trousers are connected.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They look good to begin! In the future it could be possible to add a linothorax armor over the felt armor for some of the models and arm protections?

Besides I think another good combination for the head could be a a combination of the Beotian helmet with the covered faces from this unit from the Arabs, so also could be cool to use their "felted armor" for other models:



Other good option is this combination of mail covered faces with that model of helmet:




And the bodies of these Phartian warrior with their felt armors could be useful as well:

[KAM 2150]

I will try to prepare something for tomorrow evening

Although I would probably make that unit as melee cav with shields since they would either be superior or inferor to regular shock cav and it would be odd if players would mostly field quilted cataphracts instead of regular Basilike Ile ;P

With shields it would grant them additional protectiom vs ranged attacks so they would be alternative to shock cav rathwr than straight better or worse choice.

[Jake Armitage]

Cool!

[Rampante-Cid]

I will try to prepare something for tomorrow evening

Although I would probably make that unit as melee cav with shields since they would either be superior or inferor to regular shock cav and it would be odd if players would mostly field quilted cataphracts instead of regular Basilike Ile ;P

With shields it would grant them additional protectiom vs ranged attacks so they would be alternative to shock cav rathwr than straight better or worse choice.

Great! It sounds very good.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

Does Egypt need to be any stronger though? I like the idea, but I think other factions could use work first.

[KAM 2150]

I think our previews tell a dofferent story Also check our fb and instagram on my signature, we publish stuff that we are working on there.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I toyed a bit with existing assets and this was the closest result I could get without creating new models (highly unlikely) or textures.

Let me know what you think. I would need to separate certain parts to get more hellenic stuff since at the moment armour, shirt and trousers are connected.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's looking good, KAM! I very much like the concept of this unit.

[Dardo21]

Does Egypt need to be any stronger though? I like the idea, but I think other factions could use work first.

It's one unit, and unless it's overpowered it'll make them more interesting to play, not necessarily stronger. Also, adding one unit doesn't prevent us from making actual faction overhauls for other factions, in fact, we have 3 in the pipeline with the Medewi, the Ardiaei and now this one. So I think it's safe to say that we can add 1 single unit to a faction without supposing that we're neglecting other factions.

[KAM 2150]

Ok, I had little time to make any progress but I figured out certain parts. Main issue with putting this unit together is that there are quite a few fitting models but they also clip as hell with some other parts so basically for example I wasted 30 minutes on trying to get all stuff in place before I noticed there will be no upper legs visible so there was small but noticeable empty space between knees and hips.

For arm armour I will either need to go with single padded arm protection for sword arm or long unarmoured sleeve for both arms (combination of both too).

Keep in mind that below guy will be also holding a shield in the final version. For next version I will also give them more Greek looking variants with pteryges and linothorax looking padded armour.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Plush_Salmon]

And the bodies of these Phartian warrior with their felt armors could be useful as well:

Which unit is this? They look superb!

[KAM 2150]

They are Armenian Kentronakn spearmen.

[Plush_Salmon]

Thanks!

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

That's looking good, KAM!

Do I understand correctly that the padded arm protection can only be used on the right arm with the existing models?