Suggestion: Ptomelaic "Felt Cataphracts"

[KAM 2150]

Yes as model for left arm has rather noticeable gladiator shoulder plate on it as it is used by Retiarius gladiator. Right arm model is just missing that plate but I can't simply mirror that model to other arm.

As you can see on below picture, it has to distinct look to be used for other units:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M...s_plate_01.jpg

But with shield on left arm, lack of protection will not look bad and might even make sense (since various manica and other arm guards were not used for shield arm if shield was present).

[Ptolemaios Soter]

With the possible exception of Rome’s auxiliary medium cavalry with 3 javelins, I’ve never found melee cavalary to be useful. Any role they could fill I usually find better troops for in medium/heavy skirmished cavalry or shock. So for me at least, adding another melee cav unit instead of shock for the purpose of it getting used (despite its historical role as shock cav without a shield) makes no sense. Instead, I would suggest offsetting less armor with higher charge and speed. Maybe this could fit Thessalian role for Ptolomoi? I think that would earn it more use than adding the shield.

Just a suggestion. Cool work either way!

[KAM 2150]

There is a ton of solid melee cavalry units, for example Pergamon of Scythians have veeery good melee cav. Not to mention all awesome cavalry units of various barbarian factions. Also there is no evidence that they were used as shock lance cav, so it is equally plausible for them to be used either as lancers of spear and shield cav (which at this time was slowly being main type of cavalry in Greece, from where these riders were hired). Especially that that role seems to be as a counter against archers, having them with lower armour than other Ptolemaic cav units would be counterintuitive to their role. Due to equipment used their speed could also not be higher as equipment generates more heat. Being a vanguard unit, they would not be used for shock combat but to protect other units from skirmishers and be tough enough to hold enemies before rest of the army arrives.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

There’s no way to improve their defense vs. missiles without directly raising their armor?

[KAM 2150]

No. I could only give them invisible shield entry but it would work only from the front. In armour tables there is an entry for bonus vs missiles but game is not using it. Also without a shield there is an issie with left arm that will be left withoit padded armour and with no sleeve as any sleeve model will clip with that working padded aemoue on right arm.

Now with adding them shield I can give them good missile protection withiut giving them unrealistically high armour bonus for that type of armour while also fixing as issue with left arm protection.

[Livin La Vida Loca]

There’s no way to improve their defense vs. missiles without directly raising their armor?

[Plush_Salmon]

There is a ton of solid melee cavalry units, for example Pergamon of Scythians have veeery good melee cav.

They do. And it's a sure thing to use good heavy cav as Pergamon.
Smth unimaginable should happen to use melee cav as Scythians. You either decreasing your volley weight or impact weight, none of which is good. It cood be done to include solid hoplite line into the army...but why melee cav? The only thing it does better is killing skirmishers, but with second best foot archer unit in the game surely there are other options.
I guess I could be biased in favour of shock, being an old Attila player, but still.

[Dardo21]

Melee cav spears also have a bonus against other cavalry I believe.

[Rampante-Cid]

Yes as model for left arm has rather noticeable gladiator shoulder plate on it as it is used by Retiarius gladiator. Right arm model is just missing that plate but I can't simply mirror that model to other arm.

As you can see on below picture, it has to distinct look to be used for other units:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M...s_plate_01.jpg

But with shield on left arm, lack of protection will not look bad and might even make sense (since various manica and other arm guards were not used for shield arm if shield was present).

Indeed it's a good solution to the problem of the left arm and even looks like a nice detail. Keep up surprising us with your fantastic work man!

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I personally think that this felt cataphract unit should slot very nicely into the Ptolamaic roster. At the moment in this category we have two units; Lonchophoroi and Thraikioi Hippeis, so I imagine that these felt cataphracts are going to be an upgrade on both in terms of their armour and defence at the expense of higher recruitment cost and upkeep. I don't normally recruit often the Lonchophoroi, but in my current campaign with the Ptolemies I've found the Thracian cav very useful. The shoc cav, like Sarissophoroi, are too much susceptible to heavy casualties in melee to be exclusively relied upon.

These felt cataphracts will surely offer an interesting alternative for the Ptolemaic roster. Something of an answer to Seleucid cataphracts, though less heavily armoured and more of a melee type cavalry, rather than shock.

KAM, I believe they will be a theuros reform unit drawing from the second pop group, right? Have you thought a bit more about their recruitment availability?

[geala]

In my opinion cataphracts always were more melee oriented. You can shock attack with low armor but whole body armor helps a lot in close combat against cavalry and infantry.

Can't you use assets from Attila? I'm not sure but perhaps there may be more felt-like armor available for the eastern factions.

[KAM 2150]

If I recall cataphracts were not doing good in melee, I think there was an instance where they got routed by light cav. Now definition of cataphract is broader, for example cataphract might not even have an armoured horse or overall lighter armour compared to some super heavy ones.

In case of felt cataphracts, they are medium cavalry at best.

One more person is jumping in with new textures so we might get some custom stuff for these guys

[thelordqt]

The instance I think you're reffering to is the Battle of Immae between Aurelian and Zabdas in which Zabdas fielded heavy cataphracts with Aurelian only having a light cavalry force. Aurelian's light cavalry wouldn't stand a chance in a cavalry melee with the cataphracts so his tactic was to feign a retreat/rout just before engagement, prompting Zabdas to send his heavy cataphracts in persuit. After a long chase and in hot climate the cataphracts were pretty much exhausted and caught by surprise when the light roman cavalry change directions and sprung their trap, resulting in almost complete destruction of the cataphract force.

To my knowledge, cataphracts will almost always be superior in open melee, being equipped with large arsenals just for that, but history shows they're exploited by their lack of mobility, making them vulnerable in all sorts of ways such as missle fire or the case described above in which they were exhausted. The Sassanids, for example began to lean towards a lighther cataphract unit (more universal) equipped with lance and bow, due to their problems with the "hit and run" tactics of the huns and hepthalites to the east.

I think these felt cataphracts will be a nice addition and quite unique but I can't see them being too different to companion cavalry in performance, perhaps they could perform better in prolonged melee combat.

[Dago Red]

Such a cool unit from a historical tidbit. Would make waging war to the south as Ptolemies much more fun.

[KAM 2150]

I think it was a much earlier battle, maybe with Armenians, although in DeI there is no real difference between shock/melee cavalry since that is rather artificial creation of CA. So for example most cataphract grade units will still be superior to vast majority of melee cav unless that melee cav is of similar tier (in which case shield is an advantage, just like Pyrrhus learned the hard way and ordered cav to use shields after he came back from Italy).

In case of Felt Cataphracts, they will have good defence due to large shields and solid armour but less damage and shock power than Basilike Ile. This means that they wont be as good vs heavy infantry like heavy shock cav but might be usefull when fighting ranged heavy armies of Arabia or Steppe factions.

[CadetNewb]

" - although in DeI there is no real difference between shock/melee cavalry since that is rather artificial creation of CA."

This would explain a lot. I've been scratching my head for a while and wondering why the performance between shock cavalry and melee cavalry was so similar to one another here in DeI. Why is that though?

[KAM 2150]

Because cavakry can be divided obly between light, medium and heavy. That shock/melee category was invented by CA.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

And in terms of population group they will be drawn from the second one, right? Will they become available after the theuros reforms?

[KAM 2150]

Yes, that is what I would do.

[Grigor]

Are there any plans on when this unit will be added?

I‘m currectly playing the Ptolemis and would love to use them.