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Thread: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

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    NosPortatArma's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Would a Union between Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland be a durable formation? I believe so, and here is why.

    * The culture and norms are already very similar, as are the structure of the state, our welfare systems, and our economies. Integration would be quick and seamless, especially compared to differences between south-north and west-east europe.

    * Combined, their economy would be ca 1600 USD nominal GDP, making them the 10th largest economy, about the same size as Russia or Canada. And in general, nordic economies are very competitive and productive which is why they're some of the richest countries.

    * they have good access to vital strategic resources, like energy, oil, minerals. Furthermore, they would be (or could easily become) food-independent thanks to denmark and southern sweden.

    * They have well-developed industrial sectors in strategic areas like defence, information technology, engineering etc.

    * They have similar geostrategic challanges and interests.

    So clearly, a Nordic Union would be a genuinely (mostly) self sufficient power, able to hold it's own against others.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Interesting idea. I must set the co-ordinates on my time machine to 1066AD and change the result of the Battle of Stamford Bridge, so that the UK can share a piece of the action.
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    NosPortatArma's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Interesting idea. I must set the co-ordinates on my time machine to 1066AD and change the result of the Battle of Stamford Bridge, so that the UK can share a piece of the action.
    hehe, good one!

    I hear Scottish nationalists are fond of the idea of closer ties with Scandinavia.
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    The idea of breaking up EU into ethnically, culturally and fiscally homogeneous factions seems like a rational thing to do at least at this point, now that it became obvious that Europe hasn't faced a bigger threat to her own existence then EU since times of Ottomans.

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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    What made EU as fragile as it is today was/is its rapid expansion. Having multiple unions in Europe combined by close cooperation makes a lot of sense. Different regions have different ethnicities, religions, and cultures, yes, but they also have different needs and challenges. As time progresses and various unions start to get closer to each other step by step then they can join each other.

    It would be basically a Nordic Union of Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway. A Central Union of Germany, France, and BeNeLux. A Mediterranean Union of Portugal, Spain, and Italy. And so on.
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    Miles
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Don't you guys already have a Kalmar Union (that exists within the EU), or did those guys break up?

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    Exarch's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    So what would be the common language of these nordic countries? swedish, norwegian and danish are mutually intelligible but finnish is its own language and icelandic is much more truer to ancient norse, to say nothing of english which is its own germanic language.

    Secondly the values don't match. For instance, most nations are against rape but sweden is pro rape. How you gonna square that circle?

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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    Secondly the values don't match. For instance, most nations are against rape but sweden is pro rape.
    How often did those cruel hairy vikings come for you? This is a interesting thread (thank you OP), can we leave this Bull out of here? Thank you.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    OK OP so the countries become truly just like US states and you have superior federal government? That is the tough sell the EU has not been able to make obviously. A real federal union would be a local improvement since it opens up having unified fiscal and monetary policy - a key failure of the EU now. But is Norway going to vote to make its sovereign wealth fund available to all of 'Scandinavia' or like Alaska does keep it to itself as a state w/o provoking issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sweden is pro rape. How you gonna square that circle?
    Is that better or worse than promiscuous American women as a problem that exists only in your mind?
    Last edited by conon394; April 15, 2019 at 09:00 AM.
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    Tiro
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Interesting idea. I must set the co-ordinates on my time machine to 1066AD and change the result of the Battle of Stamford Bridge, so that the UK can share a piece of the action.
    Or you could try at least save the Norn language from extinction in the Orkney Islands during the 19th century or you could make the Norse more successful in establishing colonies in the Americas to get a true trans-Atlantic Scandinavian Union.

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    Diocle's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Wouldn't it be easier and better turning this horrid nazi-communist 'Federation' of slaves, into a good, old 'Confederation' of free nation states, in which any nation is granted of its own culture, ethics, law system and historical identity, without any super-state(bank) imposing policies, values and fake-identity to a mass of serfs?

    Anyway, since I hope that this fake union of bankers, usurers and stateless profiteers perishes in the shame and dishonour, everything that may come to accelerate its death, it's welcomed.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Wouldn't it be easier and better turning this horrid nazi-communist 'Federation' of slaves, into a good, old 'Confederation' of free nation states, in which any nation is granted of its own culture, ethics, law system and historical identity, without any super-state(bank) imposing policies, values and fake-identity to a mass of serfs?
    Like the articles of confederation which failed to actually work in the real world. There is a reason the US Constitution starts with a more perfect union... and the serfs voted for it and fought a war for it.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Diocle's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Like the articles of confederation which failed to actually work in the real world. There is a reason the US Constitution starts with a more perfect union... and the serfs voted for it and fought a war for it.
    No, sadly the CSA got destroyed before starting to exist, I was thinking to more useful and more European examples like Swizerland and its direct democracy, a confederacy where French speaking, German speaking and Italian speaking communities are living together in peace and harmony for more than half a millenium now, a nation state in which Catholics, Luterans and Calvinists cooperate with no problem, the first and oldest democratic state on this valley of sorrow, Swizerland, so close and so distant from the nazicommunist disgusting European Union.


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    Exarch's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    How often did those cruel hairy vikings come for you? This is a interesting thread (thank you OP), can we leave this Bull out of here? Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Is that better or worse than promiscuous American women as a problem that exists only in your mind?
    I'd say the Swedish culture of political correctness and islamic rape apologism poses a bigger threat to nordic union than anything else. Even the difference in languages can be toned down.

    Finland btw isn't a part of the nordic races; it is its own culture and identity; the languages are different, as are the people.

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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    Would a Union between Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland be a durable formation?
    Not to derail the conversation, but why is Finland constantly being included in that list? Finland belongs to the finno-ugric culture group. There's no relationship to the Nordic languages. They are, on the other hand, related to the Baltic countries, especially Estland.

    I for one am a big fan of the EU having large subgroups. Benelux, Nordic Union, etc. The big countries, such as Germany and France, wouldn't need one.
    Atm. almost all of the EU policies are dominated by the big countries, especially Germany and France.
    Article 17 and North Stream II were presumably resolved between those two in a secret tit for tat.

    The EU still has some good functions, but due to its size it often fails to represent the members differing interests. As you stated correctly, the Nordic countries have some shared interest. Problem is though that almost half the voters would live in... Sweden.

    The Nordic countries already have a habit of doing multilateral decisions without involving the EU.

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    NosPortatArma's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Not to derail the conversation, but why is Finland constantly being included in that list? Finland belongs to the finno-ugric culture group. There's no relationship to the Nordic languages. They are, on the other hand, related to the Baltic countries, especially Estland.

    I for one am a big fan of the EU having large subgroups. Benelux, Nordic Union, etc. The big countries, such as Germany and France, wouldn't need one.
    Atm. almost all of the EU policies are dominated by the big countries, especially Germany and France.
    Article 17 and North Stream II were presumably resolved between those two in a secret tit for tat.

    The EU still has some good functions, but due to its size it often fails to represent the members differing interests. As you stated correctly, the Nordic countries have some shared interest. Problem is though that almost half the voters would live in... Sweden.

    The Nordic countries already have a habit of doing multilateral decisions without involving the EU.
    because language has little to do with it. finland is basically a mini-sweden. they were part of sweden for hundreds of years, thus have similar culture and institutions. finland isnt related to baltic countries, just to estland. and speakig of estland, they are quite nordic themselves, but the problem is that includinghem would probably annoy russia too much so its not worth it.
    Make Sweden Lagom Again!

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    Exarch's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    because language has little to do with it. finland is basically a mini-sweden. they were part of sweden for hundreds of years, thus have similar culture and institutions. finland isnt related to baltic countries, just to estland. and speakig of estland, they are quite nordic themselves, but the problem is that includinghem would probably annoy russia too much so its not worth it.
    I get the feeling Finns would take offence at being compared to modern Sweden: a weak nation unfit to lead the Scandinavian people, that allows its own women to be raped by islamic gangs, that stood by when the Nazis were going to town on europe (hell, at least the Norwegians put up a good fight) and actively castrates its own men for wanting to restore sweden to its former greatness.

    Can you give us a good reason why sweden should lead this nordic union, just because it happens to be the most populous scandinavian country?

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    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What made EU as fragile as it is today was/is its rapid expansion. Having multiple unions in Europe combined by close cooperation makes a lot of sense. Different regions have different ethnicities, religions, and cultures, yes, but they also have different needs and challenges. As time progresses and various unions start to get closer to each other step by step then they can join each other.

    It would be basically a Nordic Union of Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway. A Central Union of Germany, France, and BeNeLux. A Mediterranean Union of Portugal, Spain, and Italy. And so on.
    Austria, Slovenia and Croatia would also be a very natural union. Perhaps even an expanded version that includes all of former Austria-Hungary.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    because language has little to do with it. finland is basically a mini-sweden. they were part of sweden for hundreds of years, thus have similar culture and institutions. finland isnt related to baltic countries, just to estland. and speakig of estland, they are quite nordic themselves, but the problem is that includinghem would probably annoy russia too much so its not worth it.
    1) Language has a lot to do with it. Those of us able to speak Nordic languages, are able to adapt quickly and can start working in other countries without language classes or much of a language barrier in general. Which is one of the main points of multilateral collaboration.
    My personal (admittedly subjective) experience is that there are far fewer Fins moving to Scandinavian countries and vice versa, than those Scandinavian countries do in between themselves. Almost all Fins I know hail from the Swedish minority there.
    2) Even though Finland is part of the Nordic Council, it's mostly stayed out of the multilateral treaties which especially Denmark, Norway and Sweden have made.
    E.g. the multilateral tax treaty, the education treaty, or even the simple fact that Finland uses the Euro (the Scandinavian currencies all hail from the Scandinavian Monetary Union, when all Kroner were worth the same - this had to be abandoned once ww1 broke out).

    Finland has a closeish connection to Sweden, also due to their neutrality, but almost none to the other Nordic countries.

    Including Estland makes even less sense, not because it'd annoy Russia (which has nothing to do with any of this - if anything they'd be more worried about Finland), but because they have a completely different administrative and cultural legacy (in spite of the Danish coat of arms and Tallinn literally meaning "Danish castle").

    Point being: There's a reason why the Fins so far have stayed outside almost all multilateral Scandinavian treaties to date.

  20. #20
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Nordic Union better alternative to EU?

    No, sadly the CSA got destroyed before starting to exist,
    You feel sad that state based on slavery failed to win?

    islamic rape apologism poses a bigger threat to nordic union than anything else. Even the difference in languages can be toned down.
    You do realize 100 years ago you could have said (or in fact people did) similar statements about Irish or Italian or Polish ghettos in the US or A culture of drug addiction about Chinese neighborhoods and of course the blacks were always coming for our white women but for the KKK...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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