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Thread: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

  1. #121

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    It's not being ignored. It has been answered. A multitude of times. Including the last post before yours.
    There is no answering it , it's a fact, he's been convicted. It's just a matter of how many months he serves. It's not lynching, it's justice.

    You try not to judge people, because we're humans you say. It wasn't your job, we have magistrates and judges to carry out that task, thank you very much.

    I'm not 'outraged 'at Ass-ange, he's got what's coming to him for breaking UK law. I'm curious why his fanbase are defending the cowardly behavior of an alleged sex offender. A free ticket to the next Rolf Harris gig for anyone who give me a reasonable answer, perhaps.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 15, 2019 at 04:27 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  2. #122
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    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Among other things, it's been pointed out what feels like a million times at least, that Assange and Equador offered the Swedish prosecution to question him in the embassy, and/or to guarantee him safe passage and to not extradite him to the US, in which case he'd be willing to face his accusers in court. Both requests were always denied.

    Everyone who isn't completely retarded knows what that means, and yet (not only) he keeps making that same stupid argument again and again and again, as if nothing happened.

    Several members of the lynchmob have also made rather clear what their core motivations are. E.g. mongrel referring to the anti-Hillary slogan of Trumps election campaign by saying: "Lock him up."

    At that point at the latest you'd know that reasoned arguments will do nothing, since for them it's about petty revenge. Even though the accusations he's facing currently are 1) very weak and 2) have nothing to do with Hillary.

    There isn't a single argument by the war-crime-supporters that hasn't been entirely destroyed. At least not in those parts before I finally wisened up and stopped reading, as my "broken record"-reference was proven right time and again.

    If you feel like he's "good at arguing", how about you go through all his posts in this thread, and tell us 1) the average length of his posts (hint: they're very short), 2) a complete list of arguments brought (it's very low), and compare it to 3) the number of posts he'swritten.
    It's not that he's necessarily that good at arguing, it's that there is a single point from Mongrol that you all seem to be either ignoring or unable to properly dismantle. Most of the time Mongrol says "charges weren't dropped, they expired", instead of going after the spirit of what he said I find someone dropping to his level by stressing the word ALLEGEDLY (leaving Mongrol's argument's ghost intact).

    To be a master forum debater, one must be a master forum necromancer and go for the ghost.

    Not once did I see someone say "While your statement is technically correct, Sweden would have dropped the charges instead of letting them expire if they were allowed to".


    *It's all well and good to defend the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" but when you do so it kind of makes you look like a lawyer, and that is not a good look. There's a reason I waited to page six to address Mongrol's point: I wanted to avoid looks of associating with the folk on page 4, and I wanted to insert the argument naturally into the conversation.
    There isn't a single argument by the war-crime-supporters that hasn't been entirely destroyed. At least not in those parts before I finally wisened up and stopped reading, as my "broken record"-reference was proven right time and again.
    That's only true because I was the one to destroy the last single argument that had yet to be destroyed. This wasn't true 9 hours ago.
    But I don't want to make it look like I'm only going hard on him. I wish all the other lynch fans were as enthusiastic about prosecuting actual war criminals as they are about prosecuting journalists. I know, I know, he's not a journalist to you, but since he fits the official definition of what a journalist does, is often and repeatedly being referred to as such by media outlets across the world, and has won a multitude of journalism awards, I really don't give a about what he is and isn't to you.

    What I feel is incredible disgust towards these people. If they were idealists, they'd have even more reason to be angry at the perps. But as the good mob subservient to demagogus that they are, they'll happily go after the messengers.

    Instead of being angry at Hillary for doing shady things, they're angry for the guy who uncovered it.
    Nixon had to abort his reelection and step down for less.

    There really isn't much more to be said. I really don't like being part of an outrage mob. I try not to judge people, because we're humans and all humans are .
    But this goes beyond everything and has a concrete, measurable negative, and possibly lasting impact on the world we live in.
    You help those bombing the world to and destroying your freedom at home in the process.
    Are you talking to me?

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    That cover was a originally part o a series on a comedy series "the Money or the Gun", each week there was a different cover of Stairway. The Beatles cover band (Beatnix) was possibly the best, but the Elvis impersonator was strong too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    There is no answering it , it's a fact, he's been convicted. It's just a matter of how many months he serves. It's not lynching, it's justice.

    You try not to judge people, because we're humans you say. It wasn't your job, we have magistrates and judges to carry out that task, thank you very much.

    I'm not 'outraged 'at Ass-ange, he's got what's coming to him for breaking UK law. I'm curious why his fanbase are defending the cowardly behavior of an alleged sex offender. A free ticket to the next Rolf Harris gig for anyone who give me a reasonable answer, perhaps.
    I am all for justice playing out here. I do believe British justice is somewhat corrupt (all those bloody goaties covering up for their child molesting friends), but as you say in this case its clear cut: Assange skipped bail. He is a fugitive from British justice.

    The presumption of innocence applies too, so lets not call him a rapist yet (not sure if that applies under Swedish law though, they may have more of a Code Napoleon system with different assumptions).

    The big picture is this: an accused person has released info about the world SuperPower committing war crimes. He is definitely being pursued with more than usual vigour because of this. Not saying we should break him out of gaol, he needs to pay if he is a rapist. We can't also ignore that he set up WikiLeaks and is suffering for that as much as any putative crimes.

    Hard to separate the two issues, as he seems to have become in his own mind a persecuted hero. His good 9and bad) work at ikiLeaks doesn't excuse alleged rape or bail jumping so I have to agree with your overall point.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #124

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That cover was a originally part o a series on a comedy series "the Money or the Gun", each week there was a different cover of Stairway. The Beatles cover band (Beatnix) was possibly the best, but the Elvis impersonator was strong too.



    I am all for justice playing out here. I do believe British justice is somewhat corrupt (all those bloody goaties covering up for their child molesting friends), but as you say in this case its clear cut: Assange skipped bail. He is a fugitive from British justice.

    The presumption of innocence applies too, so lets not call him a rapist yet (not sure if that applies under Swedish law though, they may have more of a Code Napoleon system with different assumptions).

    The big picture is this: an accused person has released info about the world SuperPower committing war crimes. He is definitely being pursued with more than usual vigour because of this. Not saying we should break him out of gaol, he needs to pay if he is a rapist. We can't also ignore that he set up WikiLeaks and is suffering for that as much as any putative crimes.

    Hard to separate the two issues, as he seems to have become in his own mind a persecuted hero. His good 9and bad) work at ikiLeaks doesn't excuse alleged rape or bail jumping so I have to agree with your overall point.
    Indeed. This is all fair comment.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    A\ not to mention that accuser was literally a CIA shill.
    Which accuser?

  6. #126

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Yet you suggest that by obeying the laws of our nation we are somehow supporting terrorism? Your words: "You help those bombing the world to and destroying your freedom at home in the process."
    Lol. You think the only bombs in the world can be found in suicide vests?

    I was making the very point you then immediately went to prove true.
    I'm pretty sure there are laws against amongst other things war crimes. Yet your drive to protect lawfulness takes a very drastic downturn when it's not about shooting the messenger.
    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    There is no answering it , it's a fact, he's been convicted. It's just a matter of how many months he serves. It's not lynching, it's justice.

    You try not to judge people, because we're humans you say. It wasn't your job, we have magistrates and judges to carry out that task, thank you very much.

    I'm not 'outraged 'at Ass-ange, he's got what's coming to him for breaking UK law. I'm curious why his fanbase are defending the cowardly behavior of an alleged sex offender. A free ticket to the next Rolf Harris gig for anyone who give me a reasonable answer, perhaps.
    So let's say you were fearing prosecution in China for a political crime, and knew that you were risking a life imprisonment under horrendous conditions classified as torture, or even capital punishment. Then out of the blue, allegations come out in another country. You don't fear those allegations themselves, because you know you are innocent, but you know for sure that if you go there you will afterwards be extradited to China. Would you go to that country?
    Or would you rather try to skip bail?

    Ah.

    But of course you already knew that, since that answer has been givn to you before. The last example before this one being this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie
    Among other things, it's been pointed out what feels like a million times at least, that Assange and Equador offered the Swedish prosecution to question him in the embassy, and/or to guarantee him safe passage and to not extradite him to the US, in which case he'd be willing to face his accusers in court. Both requests were always denied.

    Everyone who isn't completely retarded knows what that means, and yet (not only) he keeps making that same stupid argument again and again and again, as if nothing happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    Are you talking to me?
    Like I said: I skipped most of page 4 onwards, because I could see this discussion was going nowhere. If the critique applies to you it applies to you. If not it does not. I was not referring to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    It's not that he's necessarily that good at arguing, it's that there is a single point from Mongrol that you all seem to be either ignoring or unable to properly dismantle. Most of the time Mongrol says "charges weren't dropped, they expired", instead of going after the spirit of what he said I find someone dropping to his level by stressing the word ALLEGEDLY (leaving Mongrol's argument's ghost intact).

    To be a master forum debater, one must be a master forum necromancer and go for the ghost.

    Not once did I see someone say "While your statement is technically correct, Sweden would have dropped the charges instead of letting them expire if they were allowed to".
    I'm just gonna quote myself from the last post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie
    Among other things, it's been pointed out what feels like a million times at least, that Assange and Equador offered the Swedish prosecution to question him in the embassy, and/or to guarantee him safe passage and to not extradite him to the US, in which case he'd be willing to face his accusers in court. Both requests were always denied.

    Everyone who isn't completely retarded knows what that means, and yet (not only) he keeps making that same stupid argument again and again and again, as if nothing happened.
    No "while your argument is technically correct" is thus needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    *It's all well and good to defend the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" but when you do so it kind of makes you look like a lawyer, and that is not a good look. There's a reason I waited to page six to address Mongrol's point: I wanted to avoid looks of associating with the folk on page 4, and I wanted to insert the argument naturally into the conversation.
    I don't give a damn about the looks. I'm not going to be part of any lynchmob. Defending the foundation of civilised societies, such as the "innocent until proven guilty" is the duty of any responsible citizen. Those who stood up for the Communists when they were the first to be persecuted didn't care about looks. They knew them to have the same rights as everyone else and knew this was just the first wave of many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Army Cheese View Post
    That's only true because I was the one to destroy the last single argument that had yet to be destroyed. This wasn't true 9 hours ago.
    You did? Mkay.
    EDIT: Shouldn't have skipped that one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I am all for justice playing out here. I do believe British justice is somewhat corrupt (all those bloody goaties covering up for their child molesting friends), but as you say in this case its clear cut: Assange skipped bail. He is a fugitive from British justice.

    The presumption of innocence applies too, so lets not call him a rapist yet (not sure if that applies under Swedish law though, they may have more of a Code Napoleon system with different assumptions).

    The big picture is this: an accused person has released info about the world SuperPower committing war crimes. He is definitely being pursued with more than usual vigour because of this. Not saying we should break him out of gaol, he needs to pay if he is a rapist. We can't also ignore that he set up WikiLeaks and is suffering for that as much as any putative crimes.

    Hard to separate the two issues, as he seems to have become in his own mind a persecuted hero. His good 9and bad) work at ikiLeaks doesn't excuse alleged rape or bail jumping so I have to agree with your overall point.
    No one is denying he skipped bail. Everyone is saying he had good reason to do so, because:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie
    Among other things, it's been pointed out what feels like a million times at least, that Assange and Equador offered the Swedish prosecution to question him in the embassy, and/or to guarantee him safe passage and to not extradite him to the US, in which case he'd be willing to face his accusers in court. Both requests were always denied.

    Everyone who isn't completely retarded knows what that means, and yet (not only) he keeps making that same stupid argument again and again and again, as if nothing happened.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; April 16, 2019 at 01:06 AM.

  7. #127

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So let's say you were fearing prosecution in China for a political crime, and knew that you were risking a life imprisonment under horrendous conditions classified as torture, or even capital punishment. Then out of the blue, allegations come out in another country. You don't fear those allegations themselves, because you know you are innocent, but you know for sure that if you go there you will afterwards be extradited to China. Would you go to that country?
    Or would you rather try to skip bail?:
    Let's say we lived in a real life world, and the police learn that a someone wanted for jumping bail has been surrendered to their custody. Is it their duty to defy a Judicial order or implement it? We both know the answer. The views of the alleged sex offender are irrelevant . Yes it's that simple.

    It's breakfast time. I would guess Ass-ange will be having porridge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    No one is denying he skipped bail. Everyone is saying he had good reason to do so.....
    If you don't deny he skipped jail you agree he was (fairly) found guilty of that crime.

    Everyone isn't saying he has a good reason, me for example. He gave his word that he would face his accusers, the oath-breaking sod.
    Last edited by mongrel; April 16, 2019 at 02:13 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  8. #128

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    There are two facts that are being ignored.

    1) Assange committed a criminal offence by breaking his bail restrictions and has therefore been arrested, legaly and within the letter of British law.

    2) Britain has an extradition treaty with the USA and has an obligation to consider extradition requests.
    Obviously both points were already addressed and ignore the political implications, or that Sweden is the side that wants to drop the charges. Assange's real "crime" was exposing corruption and war crimes committed by Western governments, so his current arrest was justified by a very desperate excuse to silence him.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Obviously both points were already addressed and ignore the political implications, or that Sweden is the side that wants to drop the charges. Assange's real "crime" was exposing corruption and war crimes committed by Western governments, so his current arrest was justified by a very desperate excuse to silence him.
    Silence him? Wikileaks acts independently, Assange can drop dead tomorrow and it'd have no effect on wikileaks. His arrest is because he broke the law by failing t abide by his bail.

    People want to pick and choose how and when law should be applied.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Among other things, it's been pointed out what feels like a million times at least, that Assange and Equador offered the Swedish prosecution to question him in the embassy, and/or to guarantee him safe passage and to not extradite him to the US, in which case he'd be willing to face his accusers in court. Both requests were always denied.

    Everyone who isn't completely retarded knows what that means, and yet (not only) he keeps making that same stupid argument again and again and again, as if nothing happened.
    1. Sweden does not an extradition treaty with the US for political crimes. Presupposing the Swedes colluding with the US like that is a non-starter (although it may be valid in Assange's mind).

    2. Generally alleged crooks don't get to pre-game the courts like that. "I will come in, or you can question me in a foreign state under my terms" is a very poor precedent for any legal system to allow.

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Silence him? Wikileaks acts independently, Assange can drop dead tomorrow and it'd have no effect on wikileaks. His arrest is because he broke the law by failing t abide by his bail.
    While I agree he needs to face the courts, there's no doubt in my mind Assange is facing the wrath of the US intel and defence communities who will do all they can not to silence him but to punish him pour encourager les autres. I think Manning is getting "legally tortured" for the same reason and she's no longer speaking out. On top of that the current US resident has boasted about "bringing back water-boarding and worse" so that might be on Assange's mind too.

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    People want to pick and choose how and when law should be applied.
    I agree. Purely as an aside there's the mater of those padeos in Parliament and the weird way the cops lost the dossier (and the accuser's flat was ransacked, odd that), so there's room for doubt about the integrity of the UK courts.

    Hopefully the accused in this case gets justice, that might include a flight to Stockholm, hopefully not one to Guantanamo.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  11. #131

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Silence him? Wikileaks acts independently, Assange can drop dead tomorrow and it'd have no effect on wikileaks. His arrest is because he broke the law by failing t abide by his bail.

    People want to pick and choose how and when law should be applied.
    There are obvious political implications in this, given how his failure to abide bail was result of legitimate concerns for his life.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Obviously both points were already addressed and ignore the political implications, or that Sweden is the side that wants to drop the charges. Assange's real "crime" was exposing corruption and war crimes committed by Western governments, so his current arrest was justified by a very desperate excuse to silence him.
    Indeed, the implications are important and it should be taken in account. Moreover, we do not know the consequences for his network and his sources. If he was not important, no government would have done flipping side like this.

  13. #133

    Default Re: Julian Assange is arrested by British police

    Quote Originally Posted by Europa Revolta Identita View Post
    Indeed, the implications are important and it should be taken in account. Moreover, we do not know the consequences for his network and his sources. If he was not important, no government would have done flipping side like this.
    Ecuador is getting an IMF deal now. That's a lot of resources just to punish some guy for skipping bail.

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