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Thread: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

  1. #41
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    We already saw your behaviour in regarding of Real Macedonia - don´t want even to figure to out what will happen if some more of you became an "Imperialistic imagery" but i guess you are still busy with your Economy and Refugee Spam.
    And while the name dispute went on, USA didn't make a fuss when we got S-300 because we're safely with the West. While naughty-boy Turkey is playing it a bit too close to Russia and as such buying S400 was considered a much more serious issue.
    I told you, we're the good guys in the eyes of the West and Trukey doesn't have the same privilege.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And while the name dispute went on, USA didn't make a fuss when we got S-300 because we're safely with the West. While naughty-boy Turkey is playing it a bit too close to Russia and as such buying S400 was considered a much more serious issue.
    I told you, we're the good guys in the eyes of the West and Trukey doesn't have the same privilege.
    I also assume US didn't make too much of a fuss when we got the S-300 because it was the only way to diffuse Turkey's overreacting to Cyprus purchasing them in the first place.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Yep if the Turks think the US is being unfair then why not let Cyprus take back possession of the S-300? That way no one can complain about the US treating Turkey different.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Just a thought, could it be that the US was looking for an excuse to not hand over the f35 to Turkey, and the s400 came in handy, because of Israel? I mean the tug of war between Israel and Turkey has been going on for quite some time now (I think since that Ghaza boat incident), given that Erdogan's master plan is to rebuild the Ottoman Empire, and Israel was part of the Ottoman Empire. This is a recent bit of the Turco-Israeli feud:

    https://www.pappaspost.com/erdogan-t...anyahu-junior/

    Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan threatened that he had “other ways to educate Israel” if his Israeli counterpart and son continue to “disrespect” his country by calling its largest city Constantinople, and not Istanbul.
    Now, I see that as a threat. But given that Turkey is quite prone to making empty threats diachronically , the US is content to enforce non-violent measures against Turkey (wrecking its economy by means of tweets, cutting it out of projects it worked on, such as the f35, and even trolling Turkey enough to propose selling f35s to Greece https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1RG2OF (I hope not, I consider the f35 to be one expensive bucket, it's buggier than, well, let's not name titles here, and it still has a long way to go in order to be a good airplane).
    Of course, the US can't just say that we are disciplining a NATO member in order to defend a non-NATO member.
    Last edited by ioannis76; April 09, 2019 at 05:25 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Just a thought, could it be that the US was looking for an excuse to not hand over the f35 to Turkey, and the s400 came in handy, because of Israel? I mean the tug of war between Israel and Turkey has been going on for quite some time now (I think since that Ghaza boat incident), given that Erdogan's master plan is to rebuild the Ottoman Empire, and Israel was part of the Ottoman Empire. This is a recent bit of the Turco-Israeli feud:

    https://www.pappaspost.com/erdogan-t...anyahu-junior/



    Now, I see that as a threat. But given that Turkey is quite prone to making empty threats diachronically , the US is content to enforce non-violent measures against Turkey (wrecking its economy by means of tweets, cutting it out of projects it worked on, such as the f35, and even trolling Turkey enough to propose selling f35s to Greece https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1RG2OF (I hope not, I consider the f35 to be one expensive bucket, it's buggier than, well, let's not name titles here, and it still has a long way to go in order to be a good airplane).
    Of course, the US can't just say that we are disciplining a NATO member in order to defend a non-NATO member.
    No, that's just paranoia.

    Also, Pappas Post is hardly a reliable source outside of anything happening in the Greek diaspora and galaktompoureko.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    How would USA troll Turkey by offering Greece to buy F-35s? Greece, being a NATO member, is already eligible and pretty much expected to operate F-35s. Greece was already offered F-35s as early as 2009. If Greece have not been an active customer for the program that's merely because of financial reasons. Trying to pass that as a yet an other pissing contest tokens is as petty as it gets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You just mentioned one problem with the S-400s. What you fail again to address is the Russian advisers helping set up and train Turkish soldiers on that system. You can not ignore that fact. The word of Turkey is not enough.
    The system being set up as a stand alone system and having a tech team to verify the feasibility does address having Russian advisers helping set up the S-400s. If the F-35s are really that vulnerable that just an other reason not to buy them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    What neighboring country to Turkey uses the F-35? Israel does but Israel doesn't actually enter in the range of Russia S-400s with those F-35s. Hard to do in a country that would use both.
    So, you you think the concern in valid. Got it. It's a very idiotic concern. Its very absurd to consider having S-400s near an area where F-35s would operate as a liability within this context.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No you didn't. You just said the portal in my link had it. I have yet to see it all. And my link says they are in talks with Lockheed. That's not the US government.
    Sigh, I did. I linked to an article from the same portal you posted from. It's highlighted as blue as with any link attached to a text. This should have been quite simple...


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Your debating is poor. You claimed the F-35 bad and expensive. Now you won't admit it?
    I won't admit it? You're responding to a comment on your claim that I didn't make a particular statement while also commenting on that statement as if I made it. What a mess you created.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; April 10, 2019 at 07:38 AM.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The system being set up as a stand alone system and having a tech team to verify the feasibility does address having Russian advisers helping set up the S-400s. If the F-35s are really that vulnerable that just an other reason not to buy them.
    It is not about vulnerability, it is about probability. Even just by having both system side by side, S-400 technics can get a tons of data. Especially in almost laboratory conditions where you test again and again almost for similar conditions. Take offs, landings, different flight models. All this data is then easily usable for calibration so in real war, they will know what to looks for especially if they find any kind or repeating signatures....

  8. #48

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    It is not about vulnerability, it is about probability. Even just by having both system side by side, S-400 technics can get a tons of data. Especially in almost laboratory conditions where you test again and again almost for similar conditions. Take offs, landings, different flight models. All this data is then easily usable for calibration so in real war, they will know what to looks for especially if they find any kind or repeating signatures....
    So, hide the plane till missiles are in the sky? That can make sense for a secret weapon but for the main jet fighter its an absurd expectation. By the same token no nation bordering a country with Russian S-400s should be allowed to field F-35s.
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  9. #49
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, hide the plane till missiles are in the sky? That can make sense for a secret weapon but for the main jet fighter its an absurd expectation. By the same token no nation bordering a country with Russian S-400s should be allowed to field F-35s.
    ...You know jack about military weaponry. Let me ask you simple question. Why is majority of parameters for top weapons classified? Because you need to know limits in order to create effective counter measures. You need to know how many G can missile withstand during manouvering so you can create better antirocket. You need to know radar signature to know how powerful radar you need.....Just a few days ago Ukraine tested new anti navy missile. But because russia is looking, probably not whole procedure when missile shortly before hitting targer rise up to active sensors to confirm target for last time. This short window is usually one of few when enemy ship short range counters can destroy missile so knowing exactly the patter allows you to be prepared... One of biggest military advantage is information. Because if enemy knows , he must be preparing for many possibilities, wasting resources while having information allows you just to beat it with the least effort/resources...

    Please stop discussing technical stuff that you have no basic understanding for.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    ...You know jack about military weaponry. Let me ask you simple question. Why is majority of parameters for top weapons classified? Because you need to know limits in order to create effective counter measures. You need to know how many G can missile withstand during manouvering so you can create better antirocket. You need to know radar signature to know how powerful radar you need.....Just a few days ago Ukraine tested new anti navy missile. But because russia is looking, probably not whole procedure when missile shortly before hitting targer rise up to active sensors to confirm target for last time. This short window is usually one of few when enemy ship short range counters can destroy missile so knowing exactly the patter allows you to be prepared... One of biggest military advantage is information. Because if enemy knows , he must be preparing for many possibilities, wasting resources while having information allows you just to beat it with the least effort/resources...

    Please stop discussing technical stuff that you have no basic understanding for.
    You can't really assert better knowledge by merely using such random things. Your post seems to be written from a sci-fi movie standpoint where people have random devices that only lack the ability to wash your clothes. Of course, it looks like you're actually trying to deflect from what I pointed at. F-35s are planned to be main jet fighters going forward. They're expected to see a lot of action all around the world, especially in the Middle East with Russians being active. They're not some secret weapon. It's absurd to even consider flying near a S-400 as a potential espionage incident. Regardless of that simple fact, of course they will keep the specs hidden as long as they can. Why do Russian's job for them? It's like buying a race car and telling the customer to avoid the race tracks so that competitors won't see its performance.
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  11. #51
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The system being set up as a stand alone system and having a tech team to verify the feasibility does address having Russian advisers helping set up the S-400s. If the F-35s are really that vulnerable that just an other reason not to buy them.
    No it doesn't. Russia still have access to the system. Russian soldiers could easily scan F-35s in the country and generally gather information on them. Turkey itself cooperates with Russia which is a problem. Did you forget this too?

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/turkey...roops-in-syria

    And America is supposed to trust Turkey?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, you you think the concern in valid. Got it. It's a very idiotic concern. Its very absurd to consider having S-400s near an area where F-35s would operate as a liability within this context.
    Its not idiotic and you completely misinterpreted the OP's article anyways. They said the F-35 and S-400 should not be in "close proximity." They were referring to the unique situation of F-35s being in the very same place as S-400s being set-up and Russian soldiers training Turks to use it. Not simply neighboring a country who has them.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh, I did. I linked to an article from the same portal you posted from. It's highlighted as blue as with any link attached to a text. This should have been quite simple...
    Do you mean this post you made:?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The source of Saudis being in negotiations with the Americans to buy F-35s is your own link's portal... Ugh, what high school level arguments. Boasting about Turkey helping USA manufacture a plane that USA doesn't have to sell to Turkey. This is very petty. If only you didn't have to rely on faulty logic. Nothing I said can be construed to mean that having no alternative to the F-35 means that the plane is bad. I made no such argument... This is not a pissing contest....
    That link shows the UAE wanting to buy F-35s. Still can't find anything on the Saudis.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No it doesn't. Russia still have access to the system. Russian soldiers could easily scan F-35s in the country and generally gather information on them. Turkey itself cooperates with Russia which is a problem. Did you forget this too?
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/turkey...roops-in-syria
    And America is supposed to trust Turkey?
    Yeah, it does. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. S-400s will be able to gather information on F-35s whether Turkey has them or not. It's a moot point. If Turkey is supposed to trust USA, yeah, USA is supposed to trust Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Its not idiotic and you completely misinterpreted the OP's article anyways. They said the F-35 and S-400 should not be in "close proximity." They were referring to the unique situation of F-35s being in the very same place as S-400s being set-up and Russian soldiers training Turks to use it. Not simply neighboring a country who has them.
    Very same place? Very same base? Just like Patriots were not located next to an F-35 bunker S-400s do not have to be located like that. This is ridiculous now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Do you mean this post you made:?
    That link shows the UAE wanting to buy F-35s. Still can't find anything on the Saudis.
    Sigh... From that very same link:
    The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is also seeking to procure the F-35 jets, and talks are making an important progress, as stated by officials who refused to be named.
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  13. #53
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yeah, it does. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. S-400s will be able to gather information on F-35s whether Turkey has them or not. It's a moot point. If Turkey is supposed to trust USA, yeah, USA is supposed to trust Turkey.
    Just because you cannot accept the concerns the US doesn't mean there aren't any. Allowing Russian advisers in alone is too much. And as I showed and you ignored, Turkey has exposed information on American soldiers on Syria. Turkey cannot be trusted.

    The US holds the leverage here. If Turkey wants to waste it's own money then let it.



    Very same place? Very same base? Just like Patriots were not located next to an F-35 bunker S-400s do not have to be located like that. This is ridiculous now.
    I love how you purposely misinterpret the article and what I said. You know exactly what they mean by close proximity. Along with the Russians that would be there working on the system. Something you continue to ignore.




    Sigh... From that very same link:
    Wow where does it say the Saudis are talking to the American government? In fact it doesn't name who the UAE or the Saudis are talking to at all.

    Not only that your source is more than a year old. Sounds like talks didn't work out.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Just because you cannot accept the concerns the US doesn't mean there aren't any. Allowing Russian advisers in alone is too much. And as I showed and you ignored, Turkey has exposed information on American soldiers on Syria. Turkey cannot be trusted.
    The US holds the leverage here. If Turkey wants to waste it's own money then let it.
    If Turkey can not be trusted then the same is true for USA. You brought Turkish state news agency making a map of US bases in northern Syria to help YPG, a PKK affiliated organization which is considered to be a terrorist organization by USA itself. Yeah, its Turkey that can't be trusted...


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I love how you purposely misinterpret the article and what I said. You know exactly what they mean by close proximity. Along with the Russians that would be there working on the system. Something you continue to ignore.
    Not sure what I misinterpret it. If you're gonna throw such an accusation then you should be able to substantiate it. You didn't. You're just trying to deflect from acknowledging how pointless the argument you raised was. Dilute all you want. Simply repeatedly saying that I ignore things I address doesn't make up a good argument. You don't even bother to explain what you understand by close proximity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Wow where does it say the Saudis are talking to the American government? In fact it doesn't name who the UAE or the Saudis are talking to at all.
    Not only that your source is more than a year old. Sounds like talks didn't work out.
    Well, at least we got you to see the link, the one that you repeatedly claim didn't exist. Thank you for acknowledging that... For the rest, spin baby spin. The part where it says that talks are making important progress which is said to be stated by officials. The sentence names Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Your position pretty much loses any credibility when you deny something so basic. Not much left to talk here I guess...
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  15. #55
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Frankly, I am not so sure that USA will cancel the sales; perhaps they will delay it, make a show and just go on with the deal or make a similar one a few months later. Kinda like New Democracy with the 2nd memorandum or SYRIZA with the 3rd. Make a show...and then accept the deal with cosmetic differences or make a show, rip apart the deal and ... make a similar one a few months later.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Frankly, I am not so sure that USA will cancel the sales; perhaps they will delay it, make a show and just go on with the deal or make a similar one a few months later. Kinda like New Democracy with the 2nd memorandum or SYRIZA with the 3rd. Make a show...and then accept the deal with cosmetic differences or make a show, rip apart the deal and ... make a similar one a few months later.
    That may happen, but if it does, then it would show the US to be inferior to Turkey. I mean, kolotoumbes (the term that is now international, and refers to a 180 degree turn from a position previously held) come with a pretty heavy price tag in someone's reliability.
    This appeared a few hours ago:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKCN1RS0BI

    Turkey's Albayrak, Trump discuss Russian missile defense issue: CNN Turk
    Now, I find it rather peculiar that Albayrak would talk with Trump himself, and not his own counterpart, but we'll see if this discussion took place, and if it was as Albayrak says.

  17. #57
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Pence warns Turkey over its purchase of the S400

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    That may happen, but if it does, then it would show the US to be inferior to Turkey. I mean, kolotoumbes (the term that is now international, and refers to a 180 degree turn from a position previously held) come with a pretty heavy price tag in someone's reliability.
    I disagree. If it happens it would simply mean USA is an opportunistic weapon dealer which we know. It would also mean that one of the factions of USA put the cart before the horse and were spanked by the weapons lobby to backtrack. Again no real surprise here.

    Would it be a slight-to-moderate hit to Pence's reliability? Sure. But not many of the decision makers when it comes to weapon sales seem to give a crap about the reliability of the VP, especially when it comes with billions of dollars attached. They will put their thumb on the scale and perhaps they will trip it.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 16, 2019 at 07:36 PM.

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