View Poll Results: The Golan Heights should belong to...

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  • ...Israel.

    20 48.78%
  • ...Syria.

    16 39.02%
  • Other/I don't know.

    5 12.20%
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Thread: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

  1. #21

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    They broke the peace treaty that was signed stating that the Sinai be demilitarised and kicked out the UN forces stationed there.
    There was no demilitarization agreement between Israel and Egypt or peace treaty. There was simply a General Assembly resolution. Technically, the two countries remained in a state of low intensity war since 1948. I'd say, no casus belli is required when an enemy you're already at war with moves a large force up to your border. Though, the reasons are as you say, I'd also add that there was the issue of Israel not being able to financially maintain indefinitely the full mobilization required to counter the Egyptian move.

    While I of course agree that Syria was the aggressor in the 1967 conflict, the two countries had likewise already been in a state of low intensity war. A war that began when the Syrians used what was essentially a civil war within the mandate as a pretext to invade, in the belief that they could annex some territory for themselves.


    Thing is, Russia had no right to conduct a referendum in a foreign country.
    And others will argue, "Israel had no right to..."

    The precedent just makes the argument more complicated, and opens it up to this sort of back and forth. Although, I don't think it will actually result in tangible changes to the way countries act, only in the way they justify themselves.
    Last edited by sumskilz; March 26, 2019 at 05:21 PM. Reason: yet more bad forum behavior
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #22

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    This was the correct decision. The sooner we recognize that Israel controls Golan, the better. This hardly changes anything, it's merely a formalization of what was already the de facto situation on the ground. Simply grant dual citizenship to anyone who is making a fuss. That would be the right thing to do. There is no profit in antagonizing the native population anyway, regardless of how minor the numbers are. Syria can moan about this all they want, and in the end, they benefit from this arrangement as well. This offers Syria both, material to bring up during negotiations, and a solid point to begin repairing the relationship between the two countries. Quite frankly, the conditions for a Syrian and Israeli alliance are already in place, geopolitically speaking. Both are strong Russian allies, and both seek to maintain independence from powerful regional actors like Iran and Turkey. A detente is beneficial for both countries.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Might makes right, but it works both ways: Israel heavily relies on US, all while there is a growing disapproval of almost puppet-like pro-Israeli policy within both GOP and Dems, so Israeli occupation of the region may be challenged sooner then later when life-line of "foreign aid" goes thin. It would be wise for Israel to at least bring up end of Golan heights occupation at least as a bargaining chip to normalize relations with Syria and Iran.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    This was the correct decision. The sooner we recognize that Israel controls Golan, the better. This hardly changes anything, it's merely a formalization of what was already the de facto situation on the ground. Simply grant dual citizenship to anyone who is making a fuss. That would be the right thing to do.
    They won't, though, hardline orthodox and settlers would kill Netanyahu for that, as they consider Israeli Jewish character supreme, and one Arab more is a mortal sin.

    Syria can moan about this all they want, and in the end, they benefit from this arrangement as well. This offers Syria both, material to bring up during negotiations, and a solid point to begin repairing the relationship between the two countries. Quite frankly, the conditions for a Syrian and Israeli alliance are already in place, geopolitically speaking. Both are strong Russian allies, and both seek to maintain independence from powerful regional actors like Iran and Turkey. A detente is beneficial for both countries.
    Really? Russia and Israel are at odds, and they fought a few proxy wars in the last years in Syria. Israel wants to oust Assad, and Putin went to great lengths to keep him up (and discharge some Chechens out of the Caucasus as well). An alliance is of no interest to either, low-level tension keeps their game going.


  5. #25

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    They won't, though, hardline orthodox and settlers would kill Netanyahu for that, as they consider Israeli Jewish character supreme, and one Arab more is a mortal sin.
    All the Golan residents are already eligible for citizenship if they want it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #26

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Really? Russia and Israel are at odds, and they fought a few proxy wars in the last years in Syria. Israel wants to oust Assad, and Putin went to great lengths to keep him up (and discharge some Chechens out of the Caucasus as well). An alliance is of no interest to either, low-level tension keeps their game going.
    Russia and Israel have been cooperating together throughout the entire time Russia was in Syria. Such https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-israel-russia-armies-to-form-joint-committee-1.5401404]meetings[/URL] date all the way back to 2015, and they have continued to communicate with each other in order to prevent each other from butting heads. Israel doesn't want Russia arming everyone with potent SAM systems in the region, and Russia is well aware that Israel possesses the most advanced and the most competent air force in the vicinity.

    Israel does not have a consensus on who should be in charge of Syria. This is clear from both their limited action, and active co-operation with their Russian counter parts to respect certain lines. In all these years Israel has not made a serious move to depose Assad. It's clear that they are far more concerned with Iran than with Syria. There is absolutely no guarantee that Assad's replacement will be anti-Iran or even a rational human being, whereas Assad has clearly shown that wants to be in power and not a puppet of Iran. Syria will need years, possibly over a decade, to recover. Israel's proximity, military and economic muscle can make life very difficult for Assad. That's the kind of leverage Israel has over him. On the other hand, Israel will readily help anyone who opposes Iran. Iran will want some kind of concessions out of this war, Syria can certainly leverage an alliance with Israel to keep Iran's ambitions in check.

    Israeli-Turkey relations are also a wide open chasm at the moment. They can go anywhere, especially depending on who wins the elections. But that fact isn't lost on anybody, and I doubt the IDF counts Turkey as a friend, let alone ally.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Israel has the claim by right of conquest, oldest claim in the book.

  8. #28
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer
    Might makes right, but it works both ways: Israel heavily relies on US, all while there is a growing disapproval of almost puppet-like pro-Israeli policy within both GOP and Dems, so Israeli occupation of the region may be challenged sooner then later when life-line of "foreign aid" goes thin.
    Israel won the 6 day war without any US support, in fact US support only started after that war. And if you think that Israel couldn't beat Syria again, especially in the sorry state that they're in right now, I've got news for you.

    It would be wise for Israel to at least bring up end of Golan heights occupation at least as a bargaining chip to normalize relations with Syria and Iran.
    We already tried that, more than once. They keep saying no.

    They won't, though, hardline orthodox and settlers would kill Netanyahu for that, as they consider Israeli Jewish character supreme, and one Arab more is a mortal sin.
    That's not even remotely true. Even the party that is considered the most hardline in the current parliament, the one calling for the annexation of area C, is saying that as part of said annexation all Arabs living there would be given citizenship.

    Really? Russia and Israel are at odds, and they fought a few proxy wars in the last years in Syria. Israel wants to oust Assad, and Putin went to great lengths to keep him up (and discharge some Chechens out of the Caucasus as well). An alliance is of no interest to either, low-level tension keeps their game going.
    Untrue. Notice how Russia has taken no action against Israeli bombings in Syria. In fact, it serves them. We bomb Iranian and Hezbollah assets, and in their place the Russians come. The result is weakened Iranian hold, stronger Russian one.
    Heck, Putin was even the first to recognise (west) Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

  9. #29
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    I know it is offtopic but main difference to Crymea situation is that the Ukraine borders were garanted by Russia in 1994 for exchange of Nuclear Weapons.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budape...ity_Assurances
    I know it is technicallity but in that case Russia is violating its own treaties. Izrael and Syria had no similar one prior the war...

    At least this is my personal view.
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  10. #30

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    The greater question here is if Israel is interested in future expansionist campaigns or if it is interested in consolidating what it already conquered. In the difference in outcome between the two decision lies a big valley.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #31
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Israel does not seek expansionism. No party supports that.

  12. #32

  13. #33
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Article locked behind a paywall. I've said it time and time again, don't use Haaretz. Not just because it is incredibly biased, but because they lock everything behind a paywall for Israeli readers.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    It sets a very bad precedence.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #35

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Article locked behind a paywall. I've said it time and time again, don't use Haaretz. Not just because it is incredibly biased, but because they lock everything behind a paywall for Israeli readers.
    Read it on Outline then: https://outline.com/Fc5guG (I think you can't watch the video, unfortunately)

    For the record, it was open to me earlier today, and now it's locked too. They must have monthly quotas.
    And there's no way I can post about an exclusive interview for Haaretz without linking Haaretz.


  16. #36
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Daniella Weiss is not some leader. She is a fringe figure, an extremist who has been arrested multiple times. At most she used to be a mayor of a settlement with 4000 people.
    I repeat my statement: Israel, as a state, does not seek expansion. No political party supports that.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Israel does not seek expansionism. No party supports that.
    No party supports settlements in West Bank?
    The Armenian Issue

  18. #38

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    All Palestinian territories should've been annexed long ago by Israel. The simple solution is one state and you can limit citizenship to children of existing Palestinians, as well as having an application process to become an Israeli citizen. This will solve the issue of Jews becoming a minority upon absorbing West Bank and Gaza.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    All Palestinian territories should've been annexed long ago by Israel. The simple solution is one state and you can limit citizenship to children of existing Palestinians, as well as having an application process to become an Israeli citizen. This will solve the issue of Jews becoming a minority upon absorbing West Bank and Gaza.
    By making existing Palestinians second-class citizens?
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #40
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Golan Heights recognized as Israeli by US administration

    Quote Originally Posted by pointofviewgun
    No party supports settlements in West Bank?
    I assumed the question meant into areas not currently under Israeli control, which would be covered as "consolidating". If this isn't what fkizz meant then yes, 1 party (that isn't currently in parliament) supports annexing the west bank, 1(2?) support annexation of area's c. But those are all minor parties.
    The settlements aren't expansionism really. We had settlements in Sinai and still negotiated and gave the whole thing to Egypt. We also had settlements in Gaza until one fine day we gave them up.

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