Greek Battle Tactics Feedback

[Garbad]

I was asked to discuss some greek tactics and thought it might generate some good discussion.


I run three basic strategies with a few variants.

Alexandrian: gaugamela

~8x pike
~2x archer
~4x sword or spear infantry
~6 cav, ideally lancers or companion types

Wall of pikes with 2x swords or spears or pelts on the flanks to prevent them from being encircled + heavy cav that go around the outside and crash into the rear. Everyone knows this strategy, it murders the AI in equal fights. However, its hideously expensive, has high casualties among your best units (elite pike + horse) and thus takes a long time to regen, and sometimes it bogs down against very dispersed and large AI blobs -- for example you don't really have an ideal way to deal with mass missile units - horse too slow, your missiles too outnumbered). Plus I just plain don't like pikes; I prefer the more classical hoplites + skirmishers army.

False Center: ipilia

8 hoplites
4 slingers
4 pelts
4 horse

This led to the false center. I wanted to implement the flavor I enjoy into an army (specifically greek slingers, peltasts, and hoplites), not rely on cav flanking cheese to win, and also to cover some of the weaknesses of alexandrian armies. Its central idea is heavy use of range (especially slingers) and creating a killing zone in the center to allow my army to crush through a larger mass like an alien chestburster. The False center is highly cost effective, works great against blobs of bad infantry like the AI loves to use, and is fantastic in support or 1v1. Its weaknesses are struggles against large numbers of well armored infantry (rome), small numbers of infantry (only 8, meaning you can be swamped and take mass casualties even in wins), and in many greek rosters its hard to scale it up to elite/endgame strength. So while the original false center is dominant early game, I needed to evolve it to meet the endgame.

Greco Roman - zama

4 defensive infantry (sword)
4 spear infantry
2 shock infantry
2 peltasts
3 slingers
2 missile cav
3 companions

The next iteration came about thinking about zama. Scipio used funnels to allow elephants to escape, but I decided to use funnels to allow my missile units to quickly move in front or behind infantry, while also creating killing zones. I began to expand this into letting me to bring more infantry, as well as softer offensive infantry held safe in reserve.

Here's one variant of that:
https://i.imgur.com/Y6BDWFF.jpg

The basic idea is the slingers begin the engagement with a range advantage, forcing the enemy to you. They then fall behind the infantry line and blast enemy missiles or any infantry they try to use in reserve (just rock them a few times and the AI will commit them to the line, allowing you to force all infantry into the blob rather than free to counter your moves). The tanks absorb all fire and blunt the enemy charge and hold their own in the melee. The spears in the second row prevent any flank attacks and reinforce as needed, including typically killing their horse with major advantage. As the line begins to bow under the pressure, units should begin to expose their backs to the pelts and shock infantry, who mag dump and then join the fray. You should be able to create flanks and even rear attacks without compromising the safety of your line. Meanwhile, you have two sets of cav -- missile and companions. I like to use the missile to chase down unarmored missile units (high speed), then just sit behind the enemy line softening them up. Companions loop around and deal with any other targets and flank as needed (remember the AI should have few/no infantry in reserve thanks to your slingers aggravating them). Overall, this strat crushes elite armies, particularly elite horse. Its also patient enough that you rarely risk defeat. Its weakness is high micro and setup time, plus it can have heavy casualties against mass missile (even cheap ones) and in the tanks.

In my campaigns these days, I tend to mix and match. My first army is often alex with a support army of cheaps in false center. As I grow more powerful, I might have 2x greco/romans using my finest troops/generals whose job is to eliminate elite enemy stacks, then 4/4 blocks of alex/false who handle routine blobs and siege work without using up my good troops (and its faster). I adjust as needed - false center works great vs nomads or africans for example, greco/roman works well against roman/gaul, and so forth.

[Epanastatis]

Great thread!

As with all of us, I started predominantly using what you refer to as the Alexandrian strat, but have since changed to a hybrid gap-in-the-line strat.

6 hoplites or pikes
3 heavy sword/axe/falx (damage dealers)
2 spears or peltasts
2 melee cav
2 shock cav
2 hybrid cav (e.g. tarantines) with skirmish and melee
3 slingers

The idea is to create a front line of hoplites/pikes, but with gaps in between each unit. Sitting in line with the gap and a space back are your swords/damage-dealers. The spears sit on the wings to prevent flank attacks. Slingers sit up front to goad the enemy into engagement, and then fall back through the gaps and swing around to the left wing in order to fire into the unprotected sides/back of engaged enemy infantry. All cav should be on the wing, melee and hybrids should be hunting enemy cav, while shock wait for enemy infantry to engage and then chase down enemy ranged units.

Typically, the enemy will focus their attack on your somewhat isolated hoplite/pike units. Once they are engaged however, they usually spill over the sides of the unit and show their flank to your sword/damage dealers. You then charge this flank through the gaps and the enemy is now engaged on two sides. Once your cav hav finished their assault, they can cycle charge the rear in typical Alexandrian style.

When I first tried this strat I was worried about excessive casualties on the hoplite/pike line, but it is not the case at all. This strat can take on almost any army type west of Parthia, and guarantee a victory with minimal casualties. It does, however, involve a lot of micro.

If anyone is interested I can post some visual aids to illustrate what I mean.

[H-Khan]

Well since they're phalanxes I'd normally go for majority of phalanx troops. Like with Roman legions = 10 hwy infantry or sparabara army of 10 archers, but no. With pikes or hoplites I've gone down to with 5 of 'em only ( and currently only 4 with persians since they're not that known for phalanxes ). If I use cavalry as my main arm, it needs 6 of 'em. If I use slingers as my main arm ( like with Rhodes; 3 Rhodian and 3 psiloi ) I got 6 of 'em. Normally I try to have all 3 of psiloi missile units usually represented ( archers especially to burn down watchtowers from forts ).

My generic phalanx w/o any power focus;

5 Hops/pikes
2 non-formation spears for flanks ( thureophoroi or ekdromoi hops or sometimes hoplites incase of pikemen on main phalanx )
2 akonstai or peltasts
2 archers
2 slingers
2 melee cav ( citizen likely )
1 gen

That leaves me 4 slots to shift focus on. Usually I got 2 flankers axe or sword and 2 lancers or jav cav escorted by the 2 melee cav I already have.

[TheRazaman]

Nice ideas, its always cool to see how others build armies. I tend to try and do historical runs, so what you call the "Gaugamela / Alexandrian" build I compose like this:

4x chalkaspides pikemen
2x Iphicratean peltasts (the closest thing to Alexander's elite infantry)
2x Agrianian peltasts
2x levy or light hoplites
2x macedonian hoplites
1x macedonian cav
2x sarissa cav
4x greek archers
1x general as cavalry

Tactically its the Alexander hammer and anvil. Archers in front to skirmish, pikes in the center, hoplites on each flank, peltasts echeloned back outside of those to perform the hammer, cavalry to cover the infantry line and perform cleanup / second hammer blow.

[Basilius]

Alexander's armies had the following unit composition: 65% Heavy Infantry, 20% Light Infantry, and 15% Cavalry. With DEI's unit count that means the player should only have 5 Cavalry units (100/120 men) and 4 Light Infantry units (175 men), with the rest being Heavy Infantry (200-300 men). Even at Zama the Romans only had 20% Cavalry, with Hannibal piloting a mere 10%.

My list:

• 4 Pikes
• 4 Hoplites
• 2 Skirmish Cav
• 2 Lancers
• 1 Melee Cav
• 2 Peltasts / Javs
• 2 Archers / Slingers
• 2 Swords
• 1 Spears

My pike-to-hoplite ratio changes depending on the enemy. I also prefer swords+peltasts to more archers, as they allow you to envelope & route the enemy wings, which is a Plan B to your cavalry "hammer". Alternatively, the peltasts and swords tie-up enemy reserves for your cavalry to have a clear shot at the enemy line's rear.

The mobile spear is simply for reserves and protecting against flanking maneuvers. It can swapped for more swords or shock infantry.

I'm also curious how users would translate this famous army template into DEI units:

Click to view content: 

Seems like:

• 6 Pikes
• 1 Hoplite
• 6 Peltasts
• 2 Psiloi
• 2 Light Cav
• 3 Heavy Cav

While that gives us 15% Cav, we have 47% Heavy and 38% Light Infantry, which cannot be correct. Those back line light infantry must be 200+ heavy infantry for our above ratios to hold.

The only solution I can think are Ekdromoi, but unfortunately those are lost after Thureos reforms.

[Garbad]

I like those kind of setups, but the problem is you end up with so many little groups its harder to micro. That's why I rarely run units that aren't at least in pairs.

P.S. My 'historical' macedon army was:

2 elite pike
4 regular pike
2 hypast
2 light hoplites/silver shields
2 pelts
2 agranian pelts
2 archer
2 thesselonian lancer
2 companions

[Basilius]

light hoplites

Garbad aren't these gone after Thureos reforms?

[Garbad]

Its been a while since I played pergamon so maybe so. I actually use a lot of units in that "cheap flank support" role including ekopoi?, theuros, even levy hoplites. Anything cheap, decently armored, and hopefully reasonably fast works.

[Basilius]

AFAIK, there are no spear-units with a speed of 3+ after Thrueos reforms when Ekdromoi disappear. They're all speed 2.

[H-Khan]

Well I can still levy ekdromoi from satrapies on my current campaign; pulling Rhodian and Lydian as Atropatkan for my tyrant phalanxes. I do remember going for "ranged" phalanx as Rhodes and eliminating flank spears for double Iphicratean peltasts. Those are gone after reforms tho, but they gave almost better protection than ekdromoi. I used to think my light hoplites as light snacks back then.. since were classified as phalanx infantry but don't have formation ability AI just charged them head on usually ( with quite decent effect back then ). Those Phrygian peltasts don't seem half bad armorwise, but no spears for cav.

Oh if going for sort of romanized "what if" for say Massalia, Syracuse or Pergamon I did use greeks as dual Polybian/Phalanx way as socii alae ( so that's where my current 4 hoplite Persian phalanxes come from I use kinda similiar with Atropatkan );
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15613495

What came to mind is that my 5 hoplite + 2 flanker phalanx is in proportion to 5 hastati Polybian main line I'm using. The Romans are more widely spread, but the 2 flankers should in theory enable first lines to fight on somewhat equal terms. The more numerous 6 psiloi would have the missile advantage over Romans as usual. Should be doable even with 4+2 phalanx setup with bit struggle. I currently don't count my generals as integral part of the army, but they vary. Say I use the top tier units only for ruling family ( say Agema plangitai or royal squadron, other families have to make do with standard hops or veterans etc. ), so it's bit of a wild card usually and might bolster the front line bit more.

[geala]

I'm a lazy guy and I prefer more or less "historically correct" compositions (never possible of course, it's a game). Cavalry was usually only a small part of the ancient armies, only in special situations it were more than 10% in the 3rd c. BC. The rule is, no more than 4 units cavalry including the general (my Hellenic armies are about 3,500 strong, so 350 cavalry is the margin). Missile troops were often even rarer than cavalry.

Composition of the main army:
1 general (companion or, better, heavy skirmisher)
1 heavy assault cavalry
1 missile cavalry
1 armored elephants or a second heavy skirmisher cavalry
7 or 8 pikes
2 thoureophoroi or thorakitai
2 attack troops (sword or axe)
2 peltasts
2 archers (and 1 slinger, in case of only 7 pikes)

Tactic is easy, let them blob at the pikes, defend the flanks with the spears, hunt the ranged with the cavalry, after some time destroy the blob with the elephants, infantry assault units and heavy cavalry. It has problems against ranged heavy armies, especially with horse archers; I use a different army then, with a lot of ranged (Cretans mostly).

If I want to cheat I change one ranged for a catapult, so I always get the defensive position (I like this especially against unwalled settlements).

I have only one or two of such armies. The rest is mainly composed of AOR units with low tier core troops in addition. I like the AOR diversity of DeI very much , however I lose battles with these armies sometimes later in game when facing elite enemy armies.

[H-Khan]

For classical phalanx the psiloi were the most numerous, I think I've read that for every hoplite there was 2-3 psiloi ( all pay for their gear - the poor are the majority ). For that my "Rhodian" phalanx approach would fit; 5 hoplite / 10-14 psiloi. I reckon Spartans even fielded 5000 hoplites and 35 000 helots by some account. Psiloi were also the baggage train or rowers, so didn't always join the fight. But I try to have more than 4 missile units that I use with Romans ( I think I should have way more even with them ).

[Basilius]

Here are my Hellenic League army templates. Elite variants are in parenthesis.

Pre-Reforms
1 Logades
4 Hoplites (Spartans)
4 Levy Hoplites (Athenian Hoplites)
2 Jav (Iph Pelt)
2 Archers / Slingers (Kretan / Rhodian)
1 Hippeis (Elite)
1 Sarissa (Xystophoroi)
1 Hippakontistai
2 Epirus Swords
2 Levy Spears (Ekdromoi)

Thureos
1 Logades
4 Hellenic Pikes (Macedonian Pikes)
4 Hoplite (Reformed Spartan)
2 Jav (Iph Pelt)
2 Archers / Slingers (Kretan / Rhodian)
1 Hippeis (Elite)
1 Sarissa (Xystophoroi)
2 Tarantine
3 Thureophoroi / Machairophoroi (Corinthian Spears & Epirus Swords)

Thorax
1 Logades
4 Thorax Hoplite (Spartans)
4 Thorakitai
2 Jav (Peltast)
3 Archers / Slingers (Kretan / Rhodian)
1 Hippeis (Elite)
1 Sarissa (Xystophoroi)
2 Tarantine
2 Machairophoroi (Thracian Shock Troops)

Simple
1 Logades
3 Hoplite
2 Jav
1 Archers / Slingers
1 Hippeis

[zakufa782]

I think thessalian thrueos has 3 speed

Personally I awalys play with 16 unit instead of 20
Greek army is unusually
4pike/hoplite
2hoplite/spear
2swords/peltast
2range
3-4cav
2-3depend on situation,could be any units

Roman army
10 melee/spear
（4hastati-4principest-2triarii for pre-marius，1first cohort-3veteran-4legions and 2aux for post-marius）
2 range
2 cav
last two depending on situation

[Felius]

Last time I went Hellenic was some months ago, but I generally went with a front of 6-8 pikes, the standard anti-flanking units, some 2 ranged units of the best range I can get, 2-4 standard ranged, and then some cav if I still have space.p

Key thing to keep in mind is that the pikes take very little damage from infantry and (non-elephant) cavalry from the front, but ranged units can cause quite a lot of damage, at least enough to make you have to wait more turns to regen before continuing the campaign. The long ranged units are there to attack other ranged units, which are generally unarmored and many unshielded as well, so the thing is to be able to reach them.

The other ranged flank to our left (the enemy's right) to hopefully fire at the enemy infantry stuck on my pikes, from the side they don't have shields. Cavalry do as cavalry are to do, flank and charge. A number of the ranged cav options can do both this and the previous role.

[Ptolemaios Soter]

I have two builds in my current Macedonian campaign: one elite army exclusively used by my faction leader and the other used by the rest of my armies.

Regular Army
6 bronze shield pikes
2 thureos spears
2 peltast pikes
2 AOR shock infantry (usually agrianians or thracians, but late game Apullians, which aren’t shock but are amazing)
2 peltasts
2 rhodian slingers/Cretan archers
2 tarentines
1 general shock/heavy skirmisher cav
1 sarissa cav

This is a pretty standard “Alexandrian” build, adapted slightly to the era. It’s less shock cavalry dependent and uses more heavy skirmishers to get kills without taking losses. The critical units here are the peltast pikes. I put them on the flank with the shock infantry. They’re fast, flexible, and tear through anything, especially good against armor.

Royal Army
6 bronze shield pikes
2 agema (short pikes)
2 peltast pikes
2 hoplites (as heavy as I can field - I haven’t gotten hypatists yet)
2 royal peltast shock infantry
2 heavy shock (after reforms heavy skirmisher) cav
2 tarentines
1 sarissa cav
1 cretan archer

My theory with this army is that since an army can’t replenish if any unit in it can’t, there’s no reason to have a moderate amount of elites. My empire can only support one stack of this due to population, but it serves as the vanguard of my forces. I just used it with only 500 losses to defeat a full Roman stack of polybian troops (good army, one generated by the Italy in turmoil script) plus a full Roma garrison (level 3 fortified). The agema go in the mainline while the peltasts (royal and pike) serve as the flankers. Same basic strategy as Alexandrian, but with almost no missile units it’s important to close combats as quickly as possible. Use the cavalry and cretans to harass the enemy missile units while the mainline marches forward. With the heavy armor, I almost never take casualties from missiles.

I use basically the same structure for Ptolemoi with a heavy reliance on the short pikes, potentially swapping them instead of hoplites (since they aren’t available). Egypt also has phenomenal shock infantry, especially early and then again with thorax reforms (Galatians followed by Galatians with armor).

I haven’t played other Greek/Hellenic factions other than Seleucids, who while they lack the short pikes have the phenomenal all-purpose silver shields and more importantly access to just about any top-tier unit you want. I fielded some very interesting and diverse armies from horse archers to pikes to Roman-style heavy infantry cores.