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Thread: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

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    Default Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Edit: hehe, I've been brought out of the mudpit into the academy.

    Being that Plato already discussed this issue, of democracies, I will only post it in approval of its truth. It's not much up for debate, unless we somehow exhume Plato and put him on trial.

    http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~davpy357...ato-democ2.pdf

    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html

    "And then democracy comes into being after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power; and this is the form of government in which the magistrates are commonly elected by lot"

    French Revolution right there.
    _____
    Well, I suppose what might be asked here is, does social human pretense trump all order and reality? As in, what has been happening to Europeans since 1789, creating a socially centric society, treating differences as non-existent, as a ploy to gaining social prestige for having led people to believe such.

    Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, written in 1789, declaring all men to be equal in France, undoing the monarchy and the tradition of caste.
    https://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/rights_of_man.html

  2. #2

    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Democracy can only work if it is a direct democracy. Representative democracies are always bound to fail due to subversion of politicians and the wealthy, which degrade once-democratic society into oligarchy and autocracy.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    All too bad for Plato the democracy he loathed so much more less did nothing he claimed. It was rather his mates with Spartan help that slaughtered and or exiled their enemies as part of their Tyranny (30 Tyrants). Plato was a brilliant Athenian that is not in doubt its all to bad he did turn his hand to drama or comedy, and not become one of the central creators of the Anti Democratic tradition in western though and Philosophy and do is so well.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Self destructive and unattainable utopianism is the late stage of any socio-political order.
    The thing about democracy is that it keeps cropping up, governmental power cannot be exercised for long without a mandate (either explicit or implicit) from the masses. Even monarchies of old had recourse to consult their subjects, the Holy Roman Emperor was elected, the Ostrogothic Kings reinstated the Roman Senate and expanded its power, the Gaelic monarchical Tainistry elected the heir apparent upon each ascension etc. Democracy in local governments is even more pronounced all the way through history.
    I think that's an encouraging thought when it comes to the modern resurgence of political correctness. The unsustainable (and self-contradictory) drive for specific diversity coupled with the drive for uniformity of thought has inevitably catastrophic consequences. But that's okay, democracy endures.

    I'm thinking of the Hegelian Dialectic here: Thesis: Liberal-Democracy, Anti-thesis: Politicly-Correct-Orthodoxy, Synthesis: ?????? (something-Democratic)
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Democracy can only work if it is a direct democracy. Representative democracies are always bound to fail due to subversion of politicians and the wealthy, which degrade once-democratic society into oligarchy and autocracy.
    Democracy only gets as direct at tackling solutions as providing debates and compromises which divide what the people had wanted initially for their own parties, basically a "non-solution" as the solution to appease everyone. I have all my faith in the enduring principles of caste and monarchy which had always opened its eyes toward the reality of an unequal universe, unequal people contributing unequally in unequal roles, so that the whole of civilization is taken care of for all that must be done. Democracy might grab hold of everything when a people have simply exhausted themselves of any really decent and noble people.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    All too bad for Plato the democracy he loathed so much more less did nothing he claimed. It was rather his mates with Spartan help that slaughtered and or exiled their enemies as part of their Tyranny (30 Tyrants). Plato was a brilliant Athenian that is not in doubt its all to bad he did turn his hand to drama or comedy, and not become one of the central creators of the Anti Democratic tradition in western though and Philosophy and do is so well.
    Plato dealt with the forms and patterns of reality, so democracy is still very much, in the spirit of any civilization, that the people cater to whims and short-terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Self destructive and unattainable utopianism is the late stage of any socio-political order.
    The thing about democracy is that it keeps cropping up, governmental power cannot be exercised for long without a mandate (either explicit or implicit) from the masses. Even monarchies of old had recourse to consult their subjects, the Holy Roman Emperor was elected, the Ostrogothic Kings reinstated the Roman Senate and expanded its power, the Gaelic monarchical Tainistry elected the heir apparent upon each ascension etc. Democracy in local governments is even more pronounced all the way through history.
    I think that's an encouraging thought when it comes to the modern resurgence of political correctness. The unsustainable (and self-contradictory) drive for specific diversity coupled with the drive for uniformity of thought has inevitably catastrophic consequences. But that's okay, democracy endures.

    I'm thinking of the Hegelian Dialectic here: Thesis: Liberal-Democracy, Anti-thesis: Politicly-Correct-Orthodoxy, Synthesis: ?????? (something-Democratic)
    Knowing yourself and what is the best place for you to be at any moment, would make democracy unnecessary. If there is any doubt of yourself, there are men we consider leaders who guide us to be best in our own way.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Plato dealt with the forms and patterns of reality, so democracy is still very much, in the spirit of any civilization, that the people cater to whims and short-terms.
    Surprisingly not in the Athenian democracy much very clearly in the kind of places he liked. The whim thing that is.

    Democracy only gets as direct at tackling solutions as providing debates and compromises which divide what the people had wanted initially for their own parties, basically a "non-solution" as the solution to appease everyone. I have all my faith in the enduring principles of caste and monarchy which had always opened its eyes toward the reality of an unequal universe, unequal people contributing unequally in unequal roles, so that the whole of civilization is taken care of for all that must be done. Democracy might grab hold of everything when a people have simply exhausted themselves of any really decent and noble people.
    One assumes as per usual you put yourself in the more equal/better/superior or whatever caste? Is this going to become another Julius Evola thread?
    Last edited by conon394; March 19, 2019 at 09:25 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    Democracy only gets as direct at tackling solutions as providing debates and compromises which divide what the people had wanted initially for their own parties, basically a "non-solution" as the solution to appease everyone.
    True. But democracy is still demonstrably superior, more stable and less materially destructive than an entire society subject to the arbitrary whims of an individual chosen by birth rather than merit.
    Better a "non-solution" than an anti-solution.

    I have all my faith in the enduring principles of caste and monarchy which had always opened its eyes toward the reality of an unequal universe, unequal people contributing unequally in unequal roles, so that the whole of civilization is taken care of for all that must be done. Democracy might grab hold of everything when a people have simply exhausted themselves of any really decent and noble people.
    Our society is (generally) well aware of the inherently unequal nature of reality. We have the Olympics, school grading systems, wages and salaries, social-class/accents, prizes, competitions, sports, IQ tests, special needs schools, etc. While breeding and good genes helps individuals in achieving a high rank in society, it is far from a guarantee that that individual actually has the attributes required for his/her position in society, if the position is based on one's caste. This is the ultimate flaw in monarchies and caste systems. One need only look at the Roman Empire, the five good Emperors were all adopted and appointed due to merit, anytime succession was based on birth it ended disastrously.
    Those who self-identify as "noble" are generally the ones least worthy of the accolade.

    Knowing yourself and what is the best place for you to be at any moment, would make democracy unnecessary. If there is any doubt of yourself, there are men we consider leaders who guide us to be best in our own way.
    Except in a society one would have to have access to every issue of every individual with absolute trust and hold no biases and have no doubts in order to know what the best place is for you in any given moment. We're not omniscient, nobody is, not even the wisest king would be. The closest we can get is by using transparent democratic processes.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Sorry? Lol.

    I place myself in the warrior sophist caste, although I have had no formal guidance in this decision. It is largely necessity and my intuition. The less we rely on mirroring ourselves after the expectations of convention, the closer we are to being whole with nature/reality.

    I certainly do not want this post to trail away to something trivial. I put forth Plato's wisdom, and let us each come to an understanding of it that befits our place.

    Edit: the above is the tangent in response to Conon. I attempt to navigate this forum tool as best I can.

    What I can say for Himster, is that the nuance is far too pointed. Europe succeeded so well precisely for having a decentralized system so that all things needed to be taken care of, that primitive technology could suffice, were taken care of in a hierarchical scheme. Germany had it best, then France I would say, and lastly England. The Scandinavians didn't have laws as strict, for their people had to move frequently, whereas the mainland folks could concentrate much effieciency into the city and surrounding county. Nothing fails on just one point or due to a relation to something of the same aspect. I feel that we are saying here that monarchy never worked or that its worst implement is all we should be arguing.

    My last bit in my previous post was metaphoric. Taken word for word, we can know ourselves and what we are capable of. Wherever we are should then be where we need to be. No system, an education, or any politics beyond the ages of caste and monarchism have givem the most to a person at whatever station they occupy, to accomplish just what they must and nothing more besides. That, in a sense freed of all the social premise and our history of progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Democracy can only work if it is a direct democracy. Representative democracies are always bound to fail due to subversion of politicians and the wealthy, which degrade once-democratic society into oligarchy and autocracy.
    I am interested in what the guy with the outrageous meme avatar has to say concerning what a "direct" democracy is, what are its attributes? I don't know much about the Dutch Republic after the religious war, although I am guessing that would be his inclination.

    "True" democracy hasn't been done!

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    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Direct democracy is just mob democracy. Or tyranny of the masses if you please. Representative democracy - particularly if it's proportional - works because it offers a voice to those who don't hold the majority opinion. A pressure release valve, so to speak. So that they don't have to take their destiny into their own hands.

    The ability for a minority opinion to be heard in a parliament or senate, to be publicised, or even to be part of a coalition government is a major thing that prevents many democracies from failing. In this sense, direct democracy is really only one step away from the type of democracy we see in Erdoğan's Turkey or Putin's Russia. It has some small legitimacy through majority support, but comes at the cost of the voice of anyone who disagrees.
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Switzerland has a direct democracy and to be honest I think it works pretty well.
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    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Switzerland has a direct democracy and to be honest I think it works pretty well.
    A good point. Although to use a metaphor... everyone knows a smoker that lives until 95. But you wouldn't recommend smoking as a longevity aid.

    Switzerland's government does contain a lot of direct democracy elements. In particular at Canton level. But it is only a partial direct democracy. It still has a representative government, which allows all kinds of voices to be heard. Not only this, but many constitutional decisions depend on both agreement by referendum and by government majority - A government which might be made up of a coalition of different perspectives, parties, demographics etc - in other words, while the Swiss system might be more direct than most, it still has checks and balances in place to prevent the aforementioned tyranny of the masses.

    And while it could be argued that citizen initiated referendums on policy would carry a lot of weight and legitimacy - especially in Switzerland. They do get ignored - even in Switzerland. Mostly because it's really difficult to ensure everyone who votes is adequately educated about an issue enough to make an informed decision which is in their best interests. We all know how cognitive biases and popular politicians combine to make people vote for things that might directly harm them. So the systemic checks and balances moderate this. Mob democracy can be powerful. But it's not always smart. So even the Swiss have checks and balances which allow for minority input.
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The ability for a minority opinion to be heard in a parliament or senate, to be publicised, or even to be part of a coalition government is a major thing that prevents many democracies from failing. In this sense, direct democracy is really only one step away from the type of democracy we see in Erdoğan's Turkey or Putin's Russia. It has some small legitimacy through majority support, but comes at the cost of the voice of anyone who disagrees.
    Perhaps, democratic government should only account for unified defense? A government of defense(war), and a tax for the international roadways.

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    Perhaps, democratic government should only account for unified defense? A government of defense(war), and a tax for the international roadways.
    That would be ideal. I'd be perfectly fine with further insulating blue states from the political tyranny of red states here in America.

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Living in the world's largest democracy, i see the democratic process for what it is; an imperfect methodology of choosing/changing a government without violence, war or courtly disputes. Imperfect because no one i know has ever voted for "democracy", they have voted for their candidates based on cultural and social indicators. Yet in a country as vast and diverse as mine, it seems to be the only non-intimidatory manner to represent all social groupings; we have had great emperors in the past sure, but their kids always managed to screw it up, and they themselves relied on brute force to impose their authority. No government could possibly rule India without public legitimacy anymore, and that in itself is a democratic achievement.
    As far as Plato's analysis is concerned, i have always found western philosophers to be overly mechanistic in their understanding of human society. A better guide (in my opinion) is the organic shifting of power and importance between different social groups described by Ibn Khaldun. In that sense, modern democracy might be seen as one stage in the continuous passing of the baton of power amongst the constituent social groups/classes of a given civilisation.

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    If you're interested in reading about power dynamics I suggest Foucault. He has insightful commentary on power dynamics in modern institutions.

    Example

    Bentham's Panopticon

    Most influentially, the idea of the panopticon was invoked by French philosopher Michel Foucault, in his Discipline and Punish (1975), as a metaphor for modern "disciplinary" societies and their pervasive inclination to observe and normalise. This means that the Panopticon operates as a power mechanism. "On the whole, therefore, one can speak of the formation of a disciplinary society in this movement that stretches from the enclosed disciplines, a sort of social 'quarantine', to an indefinitely generalizable mechanism of 'panopticism'".[39] The Panopticon is an ideal architectural figure of modern disciplinary power which Foucault proposes had existed before it was named as such. Foucault references quarantine procedures in response to the plague at the end of the seventeenth century, which predate the model of the panopticon but resemble the control dynamic closely. A plague-ridden town would be partitioned, then each house would be locked with guards on each street end in a similar design to the later-theorized panopticon. The Panopticon creates a consciousness of permanent visibility as a form of power, where no bars, chains, and heavy locks are necessary for domination any more.[40] Instead of actual surveillance, the mere threat of surveillance is what disciplines society into behaving according to rules and norms. Furthermore, the spectator of the panopticon changes in Foucault's account, for the idea that fellow people are watching and spectating reinforces the disciplinary society. Foucault proposes that not only prisons but all hierarchical structures like the army, schools, hospitals and factories have evolved through history to resemble Bentham's Panopticon. The notoriety of the design today (although not its lasting influence in architectural realities) stems from Foucault's famous analysis of it.

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    True. But democracy is still demonstrably superior, more stable and less materially destructive than an entire society subject to the arbitrary whims of an individual chosen by birth rather than merit.
    Better a "non-solution" than an anti-solution.
    That depends on the values of the society in question.. Democracy has a prerequisite in the form of democratic values, that must be held by the people. Medieval europeans were not ready for democracy, just as I believe e.g. parts of the middle eaqst today are not ready for democracy. Democracy lets the people shape the government, but if the people's values are such that they don't even want a democracy in the first place, they will simply abolish it if allowed to vote on it. So, if the goal is to maintain democracy, there is a need to "foster" the people in democratic ideals first, and also set up a good environment for a nascent democracy to grow, ie stability and peace. Thus "enlightened despotism" does have a legitimate role to play in a transition phase.
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    I'm not sure what you mean. Various forms of democracy existed in Europe throughout the centuries, including medieval periods, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Democracy does not mean your country will prosper or be powerful. Democracy is simply one of many ways to run a state. Whether democracy would work in the Middle East or not, is dependent on many different factors. Some are tangible, like economy, strength of the security apparatus, form of democracy, the geography of the state, etc.

    Moreover, there's already democracies in Middle East and Africa today. Some of them work relatively well and some of them don't. I would also consider Iran a successful Republic, a form of Democracy. Is it perfect? Certainly not, but neither is Singapore, a government that I consider equally flawed in the way it's structured. Yet Singapore is a successful high income country who's people are generally happy.

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    NosPortatArma's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. Various forms of democracy existed in Europe throughout the centuries, including medieval periods, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Democracy does not mean your country will prosper or be powerful. Democracy is simply one of many ways to run a state. Whether democracy would work in the Middle East or not, is dependent on many different factors. Some are tangible, like economy, strength of the security apparatus, form of democracy, the geography of the state, etc.

    Moreover, there's already democracies in Middle East and Africa today. Some of them work relatively well and some of them don't. I would also consider Iran a successful Republic, a form of Democracy. Is it perfect? Certainly not, but neither is Singapore, a government that I consider equally flawed in the way it's structured. Yet Singapore is a successful high income country who's people are generally happy.
    that's what I mean by that a proper environment is needed for a nascent democracy to succeed. the state needs to be strong and stable, the people need to be quite unified and not divided by tribe or sect, society needs to be stable..

    I would mention turkey and tunisia as examples of democracy in the middle east. obviously not perfect, but they have the advantage of having a long tradition of state-hood. Tunisia and turkey have been politicial units for a long time, it's not an artificial construct like lybia or iraq. Democracy needs a stable foundation of national unity, tunisia and turkey has that. Iran too has such a legacy obviously, so does egypt, but for them the problem is that the islamic tradition is very strong and competes with democratic ideals, and with Iran such ideas are held by the government itself. Ataturk is a perfect example of an enlightened despot and his work in fostering the turks with western ideals is admirable. Obviously he didn't do a good enough job though, and now we see the resurgence of competing islamic ideas which may roll back much of what he achieved. lee kuan yew is also an examplary leader who transformed his country. national unity and a strong state is required for good democracy, and he provided that for singapore.

    what I am saying is that some countries have the advantage of already having a long tradition of state hood. Countries like Iran could very easily transition to democracy . But other countries like libya and iraq are artificial, and giving them democracy would see them spiral into sectarianism and tribalism. Such countries need a lee kaun yew/ataturk figure which creates a national unity and strong state, and THEN gradually introduces democracy. Or alternatively, the tribal divisions are too hard to overcome, in which case the country needs to be partitioned to be able to enjoy democracy. that may be the case with many countries.
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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    That depends on the values of the society in question.. Democracy has a prerequisite in the form of democratic values, that must be held by the people.
    Medieval europeans were not ready for democracy, just as I believe e.g. parts of the middle eaqst today are not ready for democracy.
    Democracy lets the people shape the government, but if the people's values are such that they don't even want a democracy in the first place, they will simply abolish it if allowed to vote on it. So, if the goal is to maintain democracy, there is a need to "foster" the people in democratic ideals first, and also set up a good environment for a nascent democracy to grow, ie stability and peace. Thus "enlightened despotism" does have a legitimate role to play in a transition phase.

    Sure, there's a prerequisite, but it is the broadest prerequisite possible.
    There are many examples of democratic leanings even in governments we tend to think of as being opposed to democracy: Germany's electoral college (and local municipalities too), the Celtic Tainistry, Papal elections, the Ostrogothic reinstatement of the Roman Senate, the Thing in North Germanic nations, the democratic nature of guilds... I mean the list goes on and on.
    I am almost tempted to say that democracy is innate, as even the most repressive of despots must have some semblance of a mandate from the masses to both obtain and then maintain authority.
    Of course this needs some qualification: the enlightened despotism, as you call it, does have a legitimate role to play not just as a transitional step, but as a bulwark to potential threats afterwards. Any robust democratic constitution has a mechanism to endow emergency powers when needed. Flexible like rubber, hard and sharp like glass. These are the requirements of a good sword and a good government.

    what I am saying is that some countries have the advantage of already having a long tradition of state hood. Countries like Iran could very easily transition to democracy . But other countries like libya and iraq are artificial, and giving them democracy would see them spiral into sectarianism and tribalism. Such countries need a lee kaun yew/ataturk figure which creates a national unity and strong state, and THEN gradually introduces democracy. Or alternatively, the tribal divisions are too hard to overcome, in which case the country needs to be partitioned to be able to enjoy democracy. that may be the case with many countries.
    That is a fantastic point. Yes.
    But I think democracy has to play a role in the transition too, for the purposes of organic change. Rather than the whims of a despot deciding on the new borders, as this was the source of the problem to begin with.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Default Re: Diversity is the late stage method of the tyrant to assume control of the democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Switzerland has a direct democracy and to be honest I think it works pretty well.
    The Swiss model cannot be replicated anywhere but in Switzerland.
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