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Thread: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Icon5 Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    Honest question, since I'm a long-time owner and player of M2TW Kingdoms and its mods, including SSHIP for Stainless Steel, De Bello Mundi, DAC, MOS and RK for Third Age Total War, Rise of Three Kingdoms, even Westeros: Total War. I've never once seen anything quite like this in any of these other mods and to be honest I don't even remember it happening in previous EBII campaigns as Hellenistic factions. I'm currently playing a Roman campaign, which has been really fun and at turn 660 something in the year 107 BC, I've got a huge empire of 90+ settlements with the Marian reforms long since enacted. There's just one problem: I keep having a periodic and crippling lack of family members.

    I've seen it happen a few times now since 272 BC, a boom bust cycle that slowly creeps up on you without realizing it, until you realize you don't have enough decent governors to man the provinces. Just a decade previously I had 118 family members, and now I have only 88 of them (with several over the age of 70 right now and ready to die). I think that number even includes recruited client rulers! Until just a few turns ago, I didn't have a single family member in his 20s or teens, but just this year I got a couple 16-year-old kids who are going to be basically useless to me for the next two decades as governors or generals (especially those lacking imperium).

    I see the report on family members every turn showing that new sons are being born and recently there was a flurry of marriages and brides for male family members (after I married off the women). That's great for a decade or two from now, but it doesn't help me at all in my current demographic nightmare where almost half my generals are literally over the age of 60, and they always die off (or retire) at age 72/73! Certainly well over half of them are over the age of 50. This is a serious problem, especially since I now rarely get messages about potential candidates for adoption.

    My question is this: is it a problem you guys created? And if so, why? It poses a serious challenge to maintaining an empire on the campaign map, so for role-play purposes I can understand it, but it just doesn't make any sense that as the bigger my empire gets...the smaller the pool of capable leading men? What? Shouldn't that be backwards? If my empire was shrinking and I was losing territories left and right to invasions and occasional revolts, okay, I can see why my family would shrink too, but that's not what is happening. What's happening is the game being very glib, waving its finger and/or its butt at me and going "na-na-na-na-boo-boo, your faction's going to die off, and there's nothing you can do about it!"

    I've also raised this question before in another thread, but got no responses about it, leading me to believe it was tactfully ignored by your team. I'd appreciate a response now please, because if this isn't intentional, something very weird is going on. I very much doubt it is a hard-coded issue, since I've never experienced it before, but I could be wrong.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    I see nothing unusual in this situation. There're discussions on how the engine grants the new characters but I hold the opinion that there's a long term balance of 1:1 ratio settlements/generals. So 90+ settlements and 88 generals seems fine. The family management is difficult in the EBII due to a large number of the generals at the beginning of the game for some faction, but then the client rulers blurry the picture. I've pointed at the problem of the aging of the generals before.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    Uh, that ratio only makes sense if your family members are actually capable of becoming and staying as good governors. Clearly, as you guys have scripted, roughly half of all family members are just rotten and useless in terms of governorship, better suited to the field of battle. If your finances even poke above 100,000 mnai, your family members all start to get those obnoxious "embezzler" and "glutton" traits that basically cripple any sort of efforts to keep them as governors, requiring constant rotation. Of course, without a provincial ancillary, they should be rotated back to Rome anyway for reelection. Still, the second you make them a governor again, those bad traits easily push public order down into the red and that causes revolts and loss of income, let alone entire provinces to rebellion.

    Thanks for confirming, though, that it's most likely a hard-coded issue that doesn't jive with EBII's family member versus client ruler system.

  4. #4
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    We haven't scripted anything; there are hidden, hardcoded mechanics at work with the number of FMs.

    Don't forget we binned the Teutonic system precisely because it gave too few FMs, and we couldn't do anything about it.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; March 15, 2019 at 04:13 AM.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    We haven't scripted anything; there are hidden, hardcoded mechanics at work with the number of FMs.

    Don't forget we binned the Teutonic system precisely because it gave too few FMs, and we couldn't do anything about it.
    Very true, but I then have to wonder if the number of client rulers I have is screwing with this then. Perhaps the game freaks out when I recruit a lot of them and goes to extreme measures to self-correct? To be honest, about 70-75% of my territories are allied democracies and oligarchies, while the remaining 25-30% are core Italian territories or provincial governments. Again, the amount of family members I have right now wouldn't be too much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that a large percentage of them are just totally broken, worthless awful governors who make settlements rebel within a matter of a few turns due to public order going red.

    You have to admit, though, that having a long stretch of time where there isn't a single person in the teens or twenties is weird and just not normal for any M2TW mod. When I finally got a couple 16-year-old kids (thank Zeus for that), my third youngest general was 37 years old!!! Most family members are significantly older than him too, age 50+ as I've explained.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Did you guys script a recurring demographic crisis? Every other generation my number of family members drops to contemptible degrees, causing systemic problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    If your finances even poke above 100,000 mnai, your family members all start to get those obnoxious "embezzler" and "glutton" traits that basically cripple any sort of efforts to keep them as governors,
    100,000? I got past 30,000 and one of my guys got hit with a -1 influence trait. My plan is to expand my army/navy when my finances get too good, and use them up/disband them if needed.

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