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Thread: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

  1. #1

    Default Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    I've played 3 games on 3.0 so far and have enjoyed each one. However, I've noticed a trend that in all 3 games the evil factions are either fought to a stalemate or crushed by the good factions. Here are some observations I've made so far, I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced the same.

    - In all 3 games the Variags have sided with the Istari. Not sure if the chances of that happening were buffed or it's just random luck on my part but it makes things even harder for the evil factions.

    - Gondor and Dol Amroth have fought Mordor and friends to a stalemate in every game so far. This is actually pretty well balanced and leads to some good action in the South as they will sometimes lose provinces (Gondor even lost Minas Tirith in one game but took it back a couple turns later) but always seem to fight their way back. While this isn't very lore-friendly of course I think it makes for a more interesting game rather than knowing that Gondor will be overrun by turn 100 or so as always seemed to happen previously.

    - In the North however it's a different story. The Goblins of Moria, Angmar, and Gundabad always seem to be overrun and can't put up much of a fight past turn 100-120 or so. In one game I played as the Northern Dunedain and did almost nothing against Angmar and they were still crushed by the Dwarves and Imladris. The GoM seem to be particularly weak and just can't handle Khazad-dum. This really puts and damper on things later in the game as it just ends up with good factions doing nothing because they're surrounded by allies or fighting each other.

    - I don't know what's up with Dol Guldur but they're little more than a speed bump. In all 3 games they were steamrolled or reduced to a rump state well before turn 100.

    - The Easterlings are no longer a steamroller themselves which is a good thing, they have a far more difficult time against Dorwinion and take much longer to push them back.

    - Mordor, Harad, and Ar-Adunaim can never seem to wipe Khand out completely after they side with the Istari, allowing Khand to slowly recover and then break the stalemate they have with Gondor and push the good factions to victory.

    Hopefully these observations are helpful. I personally would like to see if others are experiencing the same things and if so a buff to the northern evil factions and especially Dol Goldur may be helpful to keep things interesting.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by bob124 View Post
    I've played 3 games on 3.0 so far and have enjoyed each one. However, I've noticed a trend that in all 3 games the evil factions are either fought to a stalemate or crushed by the good factions. Here are some observations I've made so far, I'm curious to see if anyone else has experienced the same.

    - In all 3 games the Variags have sided with the Istari. Not sure if the chances of that happening were buffed or it's just random luck on my part but it makes things even harder for the evil factions.

    - Gondor and Dol Amroth have fought Mordor and friends to a stalemate in every game so far. This is actually pretty well balanced and leads to some good action in the South as they will sometimes lose provinces (Gondor even lost Minas Tirith in one game but took it back a couple turns later) but always seem to fight their way back. While this isn't very lore-friendly of course I think it makes for a more interesting game rather than knowing that Gondor will be overrun by turn 100 or so as always seemed to happen previously.

    - In the North however it's a different story. The Goblins of Moria, Angmar, and Gundabad always seem to be overrun and can't put up much of a fight past turn 100-120 or so. In one game I played as the Northern Dunedain and did almost nothing against Angmar and they were still crushed by the Dwarves and Imladris. The GoM seem to be particularly weak and just can't handle Khazad-dum. This really puts and damper on things later in the game as it just ends up with good factions doing nothing because they're surrounded by allies or fighting each other.

    - I don't know what's up with Dol Guldur but they're little more than a speed bump. In all 3 games they were steamrolled or reduced to a rump state well before turn 100.

    - The Easterlings are no longer a steamroller themselves which is a good thing, they have a far more difficult time against Dorwinion and take much longer to push them back.

    - Mordor, Harad, and Ar-Adunaim can never seem to wipe Khand out completely after they side with the Istari, allowing Khand to slowly recover and then break the stalemate they have with Gondor and push the good factions to victory.

    Hopefully these observations are helpful. I personally would like to see if others are experiencing the same things and if so a buff to the northern evil factions and especially Dol Goldur may be helpful to keep things interesting.
    The chances of Khand accepting or declining the Blue Wizards is 50:50 as far as I know. So you were just really lucky (or unlucky). You have to keep in mind that Khand turning good can create a chain reaction. First of all Mordor gets an additional enemy at its back, which means they cannot focus 100% on Gondor/DA. Same for Harad and AA. This gives Gondor the breathing room to fight back against Mordor and DA to fight Harad/AA. Also Rhun gets a bit distracted, which means Dorwinion can fight back and thus Erebor can focus more on Gundabad. Then Gundabad cannot fully attack Anduin, and so on...
    Only Dol Guldur seems to get crushed much more in 3.0. The Anduin has one front less, because the Goblins of Moria focus on the West. The Anduin is now much more a threat to Dol Guldur as Lorien or Tharnduil ever were.
    I think it would be a good change for the next verision, to shift the chances of Khand accepting the Blue Wizards depending on the faction the player chooses (if it is even possible). So, if the player chooses a good faction it should be something like 70:30 in favour of declining the Blue Wizards. If the player chooses Enedwaith or the AA it could remain at 50:50.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    I am playing as the Woodland realm at the moment and yes I am destroying Dol Goldur. This is my second campaign as I didnt use the hotfix and just installed V3 a second time after the little patches were introduced in the installer but in both my campaigns Gundabad is slowly but surely killing Erebor.(and Anduin to some extent)

    In case of the Khand script. First campaign they sided with the Istari but in my current campain they have sided with Mordor and the 2 Istari are dead now (atleast 1 is anyway.) other than that yeah Gondor is having a bit of a stalemate but i intend to get an army together after i destroy Dol Goldur and help out Gondor a bit.

    Isengard in both my campaigns are working very hard to get rid of Rohan, if it continues likes this they will smash their enemy. will need to help them out too.

    all in all i havent really found the evil factions to be too weak. as a human player it is just too easy to steamroll orcs when playing as elves but i am starting a new campaign tonight as Gondor or Angmar (undecided) and see what happens then.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    Mordor lost one settlement which is the reason they're no longer absolutely stomping Gondor. However, Isengard is still stomping Rohan pretty hard and the Dunlendings always seem to be a powerhouse in Eriador. When Isengard inevitably attacks Gondor one way or another, Gondor will fall quite quickly.

    In my current AA campaign Khand joined the Istari and has absolutely rekt Rhun. Both Dale and Dorwinion couldn't expand but Khand was like, easy pickings and took everything. Dol Goldur tends to get whacked by the Anduin and Angmar seems capeable of holding on for a long time but inevitably dies as well, same with Gundabad really.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    I wouldn't say so overall, but for Dol Guldur I'd agree. Rhun and Harad now just take a little longer to get going, but for Harad that usually means Khand will actually beat them in getting a settlement that borders Gondor. Khand has pretty much replaced Harad as the main evil southern faction that Gondor/Dol Amroth needs to contend with. I've always had more trouble with Khand than Harad in my Gondor/Amroth campaigns.

    I'm actually appreciative of the fact that AI Mordor needs to work harder in DaC, rather than just rofl-stomping their way through the southern theater before barracks event even hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob124 View Post

    - In the North however it's a different story. The Goblins of Moria, Angmar, and Gundabad always seem to be overrun and can't put up much of a fight past turn 100-120 or so. In one game I played as the Northern Dunedain and did almost nothing against Angmar and they were still crushed by the Dwarves and Imladris. The GoM seem to be particularly weak and just can't handle Khazad-dum. This really puts and damper on things later in the game as it just ends up with good factions doing nothing because they're surrounded by allies or fighting each other.
    This has always been the case for TATW, even before Vanilla 3.2 and the original Orcs of Gundabad faction. Dwarves will almost always win autoresolve, and the amount of enemies surrounding them overwhelms the evil northern factions eventually. Before the most recent update though, I've noticed Angmar usually making decent headway into Eriador before the Blue Dwarves start to expand.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    Playing Lorien, I find goblins more powerfull: they have taken Moria (dwarves then do nothing save threatening me)
    and DolGuldur more aggressive, I can't grow as I must defend my capital often.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    Honestly though initially i thought that Gundabad and Dol guldur were weaker after some deliberation i think that that has more to do with Anduin being a super powerhouse in v3, they are much stronger than the Anduin which always died sooner or later in v2.2.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    Anduin does seem buffed, but it was much needed IMO. I've played a couple Anduin campaigns since DaC's release and I've always felt I've had to really utilize "gamey" tactics and abuse the AI just to survive. It's hard to roleplay when you're just constantly fighting back stack after stack of orcs (if you're not Gondor )

  9. #9

    Default Re: Are evil factions too weak in 3.0?

    If anyone is interested Dol Guldur can hold their own if you give them a boost to their king's purse. I upped theirs to 8,000 a turn as a test and it's actually working out very nicely 70 turns in with them in a stalemate with the surrounding good factions which allows Gundabad and Angmar to breathe a bit without becoming overpowered.

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