Page 15 of 15 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
Results 281 to 290 of 290

Thread: It just went down in New Zealand

  1. #281

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Polls in the UK generally say most people view immigration positively. I’m among them, considering some of my family have immigrated back and forth within the Commonwealth. As well as that, NOT in spite of that, but instead simply additionally, most people also want immigration to decrease. This tells me people are not anti-immigration, they are anti-mass immigration.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ds-immigration
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    All im saying is the general sentiment in Europe it isn't what it used to be ( even in France and such). I also suspect this issue is more divisive then apparently it seemed. Meaning there was a big silent demographic that has this views. As opposed to mainstream, media and politics. I think we are seeing something of that unveil in our societies.

    It's broad and nuanced. Islamic terrorists are for the most part an example of the defence of the powerless. They are people organising to respond to a direct and present violent threat to their society or culture. Whether you agree with their cause or not, people who resort to this sort of terrorism are doing so because they have lost the ability to influence outcomes through other means.
    It is more broad and nuanced then you are suggesting. Hezbollah seem to fit in this narrative of yours. ISIS on the other hand, and other similar groups seem to follow a different parameter.

  2. #282
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Alamannia
    Posts
    3,314

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    @cyclops
    There is some government over-reaction, the new gun laws by definition are rushed and from experienced will do very little in terms of numbers of people shot
    Congrats, that's about the dumbest thing possible one could add to this tragedy. AFAIK weapons are available even for teenagers with ease in NZ.

    But hearty drivel about immigration-critics in general - and likening them to this awful murderer - can of course never be wrong.

    The craphead had easy access to guns. This was the problem. And you have the gall to deny that in order to support your asinine views about what a "healthy society" is...
    Last edited by swabian; March 21, 2019 at 09:24 PM.

  3. #283
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,311

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    In this situation we're not dealing with a terrorist organisation with clear motives, rather we have a mentally unwell person who was stoked on by what they experienced first hand and what they read about. They created a personal narrative by mixing together all sorts of random stuff that justified their personal actions to themselves. The real question to come out of this situation is whether there is anything that can be done at all to stop this kind of atrocity that doesn't involve encroaching on personal freedoms. Sure gun control might help limit scope, but it doesn't address the root cause of someone with a concealed grudge who is disturbed enough to act on it. It disheartens me to say that I'm at a loss.
    A difficult issue. You know back in the day the US had a faily large and formal system for committing such people. Problem was it ran amok leading to snake pit:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    And the rather free use of frontal lobotomy. That being said the yo yo reaction has not served the US well with mandatory treatment when diagnosed extremely difficult to achieve and facilities to hold very rare. I would think in countries like NZ with better standard health care less people would stray off the path with out modern care. But also really given the rate of gun violence is low in NZ, very low and mass shooting are a profoundly uncommon, it is perhaps better not to over react.
    Last edited by conon394; Yesterday at 12:37 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #284
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    10,308

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    This guy is deeply disturbed and probably of the same brand as Behring-Breivik.
    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    This perpetrator was probably a solo crazy.
    The link between mental illness and terrorism is complicated, but it's always the same old story: White supremacist attackers are mentally ill; Brown/ Muslims attackers are terrorists. Let's keep in mind that both (Breivik/Tarrant) have political agendas.
    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Islamic terrorists ...people who resort to this sort of terrorism are doing so because they have lost the ability to influence outcomes through other means.
    I'm not sure about that. On the one hand I wouldn't label Palestinian terrorism as "Islamic terrorist"; for the same reason I would not label Israeli's terrorism as Jewish terrorism. But on the other hand, ISIS Caliphate is/was an organized state with expansionist ambitions, an ambition that includes dominating all the territories of ancient historical Caliphates, ranging from the Al-Andalus to Southeast Asia. The global white supremacist agenda and their appeals for white ethno states are nothing new. Africa, in this battlefield, emerges again as a new "heart of darkness" (Conrad's book).
    Terrorism is a tactic for white supremacist terrorists and Islamic terrorists. To sump up, there is no real substantial difference between them. Improbably friends feeding each other, they all secretly rejoice with the (terrorist) success of their "opponents".
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  5. #285

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Terrorism is a tactic for white supremacist terrorists and Islamic terrorists. To sump up, there is no real substantial difference between them. Improbably friends feeding each other, they all secretly rejoice with the (terrorist) success of their "opponents".
    Well this particular shooter didn't act as "rogue" as it seems, as there was more than one person involved and 2 mosques attacked.
    The fact he labeled so hard himself with internet memes/expressions (saying subscribe to PewdiePie before the whole scene) and was a Bitcoins type of guy, means this is a Lose-Lose scenario.

    Now everyone remotely associated to internet jokes/culture or even memes on instagram will have easier Legal Clearance to be investigated/monitored. (which means almost anyone on TWC and basically almost anyone on whole internet will/may be considered as a "suspect" to monitor) Basically more state regulation and a bit closer to 1984. That shooter accomplished a Lose-Lose situation, the only real winners are the ones who want to set up in the West a State-Controlled Internet like in China.
    Last edited by fkizz; Yesterday at 11:11 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  6. #286
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    5,406

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Terrorism is a tactic for white supremacist terrorists and Islamic terrorists. To sump up, there is no real substantial difference between them. Improbably friends feeding each other, they all secretly rejoice with the (terrorist) success oftheir "opponents".
    It’s not that binary btw. Lots of different groups embrace terrorism.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
    Check out the Post of the Fortnight Competition!
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  7. #287
    SlartyBartfast's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    In front of my pc
    Posts
    461

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    I'm willing to bet the perp was badly bullied at school: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...verweight.html
    I'll go further and say that most if not all school shooters are the victims of bullying. This perp was older and dwelt on the bullying longer and took the time to dress his hatred in nazi rhetoric, but the fact remains he was probably brutalized at school and started hating the world there. Indeed, doesn't all of our politics merely reflect our upbringing? The Islamic fundamentalist turned jihadi is merely acting out the brutalization inflicted on him and his people by the West.
    "Huh?"

  8. #288
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,767

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The link between mental illness and terrorism is complicated, but it's always the same old story: White supremacist attackers are mentally ill; Brown/ Muslims attackers are terrorists. Let's keep in mind that both (Breivik/Tarrant) have political agendas.
    I was trying to move away from a "terrorism is different based on ethnicity or motive" type argument. I had hoped I had made that fairly clear by pointing out that the Christchurch white supremacist killer was similar to the Fort hood islamicist killer in that they were both self justified crazies. I also pointed out that Islamic terrorism is not particularly different to ETA in the 80s or the IRA in the 70s.

    My argument was rather that there are organised terrorists and there are self motivated crazies. And it's important to have that difference front of mind when making decisions and responding. A terrorist act for an organised terrorist group requires fundamental questions about the actions of a society because it indicates that society is doing something that leads to many of it's citizens resorting to extreme violence in an organised way. On the other hand a crazy has created a narrative on their own. So is difficult to predict or respond to. The danger is reacting to a crazy at a societal level - which would be an overreaction that might in itself cause problems or impact on freedoms.

    I am aware of the "oh he's white so he must be a crazy" criticism that can be directed at western media. That's why I included the Fort Hood killer in my argument as an example of the same thing happening for a different reason (a self justifying crazy with an islamic motive). It is important that we recognise that organised white supremacist terrorism is like any other terrorism, likely ongoing and organised. But we also must recognise that a lone crazy is not organised terrorism, rather it is a single terrorist act. They require vastly different responses at a societal level. One is a societal issue, the other is a mental health issue.

    The hard part is looking beyond the obvious self stated political motive of a lone crazy - especially because it will often be directed at society's fracture points like ethnic or religious lines... Because it doesn't necessarily represent any real problem with that society as a whole, and responding as if it did can open cans of worms that didn't exist.

    Jacinda Ardern has responded very well in this respect in the Christchurch situation. Stating "they (muslims) are us" and that he (the shooter) "is not us" She has highlighted the unity in New Zealand society and highlighted that this action was not a mass movement or organised group acting against a societal issue and that instead it was a lone crazy with an abhorrent self justification. She has taken what could have been a very divisive action aimed at a minority group by someone claiming to represent another minority viewpoint and turned it into a net gain for inclusiveness. You can label an act as terrorist without suggesting that there is a wider societal problem. Ardern did this very well, and it's not easy when everyone in a country is looking for something to blame.

    I can tell you, as someone born and bred in New Zealand, that there are plenty of New Zealanders who would have been happy for the government to slacken a few freedoms and bend a few rules in order to string up any white supremacists they could find. But freedom of expression means allowing people to hold abhorrent beliefs so long as they don't infringe on other's rights.
    Last edited by antaeus; Today at 04:18 AM. Reason: sigh...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  9. #289

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    My argument was rather that there are organised terrorists and there are self motivated crazies. And it's important to have that difference front of mind when making decisions and responding. A terrorist act for an organised terrorist group requires fundamental questions about the actions of a society because it indicates that society is doing something that leads to many of it's citizens resorting to extreme violence in an organised way. On the other hand a crazy has created a narrative on their own. So is difficult to predict or respond to. The danger is reacting to a crazy at a societal level - which would be an overreaction that might in itself cause problems or impact on freedoms.
    One of the problems with islamic terrorism today is it bridges the gap between your organised groups and lone crazies. Isis and AQ created a "franchise" model of terrorism, providing educaional resources, targe lists and support online so a lone crazy could easily radicalise and act in a very short period of time.

    Isis has never operated in the west as an organised group but has been able to inspire and promote several attacks in Europe. The far-right extremist groups are not stupid, they see how effective this model can be, seen how effective the New Zealand incident is and will act accordingly.

    We in the west are victims of our own success, the years of the IRA, Basque seperatists and organised islamic movements created experienced, well trained and effective anti-terror procedures, infrastructure, tactics and responses so the terrorists had to find a way around that.

  10. #290

    Default Re: It just went down in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by SlartyBartfast View Post
    I'm willing to bet the perp was badly bullied at school: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...verweight.html
    I'll go further and say that most if not all school shooters are the victims of bullying. This perp was older and dwelt on the bullying longer and took the time to dress his hatred in nazi rhetoric, but the fact remains he was probably brutalized at school and started hating the world there. Indeed, doesn't all of our politics merely reflect our upbringing? The Islamic fundamentalist turned jihadi is merely acting out the brutalization inflicted on him and his people by the West.
    Muslims are rather brutalized by their own family (father, mother, older siblings) than by the West, but the taboo to break with an abusive family is much bigger among them than among people with a western cultural imprint, so the aggression and revengeful feelings are directed to other people.

Page 15 of 15 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •