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Thread: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

  1. #1

    Default Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Good day all.

    The Carthaginians get the Hanniballic Reform, which, as far as I understood it, is at least partly a extrapolation from what is historically known.

    Now, are other Factions going to receive something like this?
    Is there going to be a Getai "Burebistan Reform" or something along those lines?

    Another thing, is it feasible to make the Germanic Reform (the one at turn 600 something, where even Roma Victrix never goes) more tied to, for example, the Mercenary service of the Tribes Members?
    Example: After turn 150 I sent 50 Members out to serve, one after the others. They all serve successfully. Is it not then plausible to determine that those people, and their large retinues, brought home sufficient new knowledge and
    I feel like it would be better (subjective, I know) to tie these smaller Reforms to something the Player has more ways influencing than just waiting for a 1000 Years.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    A simple "No" would suffice
    Or have I articulated the question badly?

  3. #3
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Getai are going to get a reform, which will enable the Confederation style government. They've got some "missions" to come as well.

    No current plans to do anything further with the Germanic reforms.

  4. #4
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    The Hannibalic reform is not an extrapolation, the Carthaginians did start to use the thureos shield and hispanic weapons, there's even a stele showing a warrior with a thureos. For the later adoption of the scutum shield and other roman armours by Hannibal, there is textual documentation by roman authors but the team does not want to use Hannibal army as an example for all the Carthaginian army, which is something that I'm sad because I would really love having some Carthaginian veteran spearmen with scutum and full mail armour.

    So, if the team does not do this for Carthage despite having some textual evidence for Hannibal army, do not think they will go with your idea of hyphotetical reforms. Only if there is a strong historical background and sources for the reform.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; March 16, 2019 at 08:31 PM.

  5. #5
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Domeric_Bolton View Post
    Another thing, is it feasible to make the Germanic Reform (the one at turn 600 something, where even Roma Victrix never goes)
    That's where you're wrong kiddo. Every single Hellenistic Greek campaign I have played (Makedonia, Koinon Hellenon, Pergamon) has been over 600 turns, one of them reaching past turn 750 (like turn 765 or something). I'm playing a Roman campaign right now where I'm at turn 679 and it's the year 104 BC. I plan on barreling towards turn 800 and taking the British Isles in the mid-1st century BC, like around 70 or 60 BC, maybe even earlier! It would be a ridiculous waste to get the Marian reforms at turn 500, as I did, and then just stop playing without using the freaking Marian units. That would just be lame. Roma_Victrix don't play like that, fool. Nah-ah. Homie don't play dat.


  6. #6
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's where you're wrong kiddo. Every single Hellenistic Greek campaign I have played (Makedonia, Koinon Hellenon, Pergamon) has been over 600 turns, one of them reaching past turn 750 (like turn 765 or something). I'm playing a Roman campaign right now where I'm at turn 679 and it's the year 104 BC. I plan on barreling towards turn 800 and taking the British Isles in the mid-1st century BC, like around 70 or 60 BC, maybe even earlier! It would be a ridiculous waste to get the Marian reforms at turn 500, as I did, and then just stop playing without using the freaking Marian units. That would just be lame. Roma_Victrix don't play like that, fool. Nah-ah. Homie don't play dat.
    Oh snap

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTW9Dd7ORM
    Last edited by Lusitanio; March 17, 2019 at 04:53 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    The Hannibalic reform is not an extrapolation, the Carthaginians did start to use the thureos shield and hispanic weapons, there's even a stele showing a warrior with a thureos. For the later adoption of the scutum shield and other roman armours by Hannibal, there is textual documentation by roman authors but the team does not want to use Hannibal army as an example for all the Carthaginian army, which is something that I'm sad because I would really love having some Carthaginian veteran spearmen with scutum and full mail armour.
    Some Carthaginian units wear mail armor and Montefortino style helmets after the armor upgrade (which pleases me greatly). Was that equipment adopted in the entire Carthaginian army, or just limited to Hannibal's troops?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  8. #8
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Some Carthaginian units wear mail armor and Montefortino style helmets after the armor upgrade (which pleases me greatly). Was that equipment adopted in the entire Carthaginian army, or just limited to Hannibal's troops?
    The difference was that Hannibal veterans adopted the entire roman armour panoply, mail armour, helmets, greaves, scutum. The current carthaginian reformed swordsmens only have mail armour in some of them, they use the thureos shield, only some have montefortino helmets and they don't have greaves.

    Due to lack of sources, we only really know about Hannibal's troops fully adopting roman armour and while they were numbered in some thousands, it was an unique army compared to other Carthaginian armies. If they had won the war, that type of armour could be more usual in Carthaginian armour, but since they didn't, we can't really know that...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    So, was that equipment adopted in the entire Carthaginian army, or just limited to Hannibal's troops? I didn't get it
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  10. #10
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    So, was that equipment adopted in the entire Carthaginian army, or just limited to Hannibal's troops? I didn't get it
    The full panoply was adopted by Hannibal's troops but the mail armour was adopted at least partially by the Carthaginians. That's basically what we have in EBII.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Thanks for all the replies.

    Also, Roma_Victrix should see a Doctor. Haha. Get it? Because he is obsessive.
    This is joke. I am German.

    I still feel like the Reforms, or some of them, could exclude the turn time in their requirements,
    The Germanic One just seemed to be the most obvious one.

    Admittedly, I think my main Gripe with the Lateness of the Germanic Reform is that their current roster seems lacklustre, and less visually polished (Excluding the amazing, but ultra-late, Marcomanni) than most other factions.

    By "less visually polished" I just mean that they look less intricate than their, for example, Sauromatian co-barbarians.

    I presume that they will eventually get an Update.

  12. #12
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Das right. Better believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domeric_Bolton View Post
    Thanks for all the replies.

    Also, Roma_Victrix should see a Doctor. Haha. Get it? Because he is obsessive.
    This is joke. I am German.
    That was a superb self-burn there. Come on, can we get an applause from the audience for the Kraut, please?

    Coming back to the OP, I would like to ask about the Imperial reforms for Rome, since I've already got the Marian reforms. I'm well aware that you guys haven't made the Praetorian guard unit yet, which would accompany a hypothetical Imperial reform for a Principate age following the Republic. However, if I remember correctly, there is actually a trait in the export_descr_character_traits file or whatever it's called that names your faction leader Augustus and successors as Caesar. Do these actually appear in the game as it is, v. 2.35? Or are they just sitting there in preparation (not actual current use) for a hypothetical Imperial reform with a new Praetorian guard unit?

  13. #13
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That was a superb self-burn there. Come on, can we get an applause from the audience for the Kraut, please?
    My applause to Domeric, the funniest German in the twc

    By the way, Roma_Victrix I didn't knew about that trait, I'm going to look at the edct and see what is that about

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Maybe what is called "Hanniballic army" would be of more common use by Carthage if they had won the war. I know that Hannibal's army composition was due to very special circumstances but it would be probable that some of the tactics and equipment could ended up being adopted "more" generally. They sure needed them.

    I have the notion that Hannibal's reforms after the 2nd punic war were more economical and political in nature, yes?

    Entering the "what if" realm would be a nightmare because the possibilities are infinite. Sad really!

  15. #15
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiuga View Post
    Maybe what is called "Hanniballic army" would be of more common use by Carthage if they had won the war. I know that Hannibal's army composition was due to very special circumstances but it would be probable that some of the tactics and equipment could ended up being adopted "more" generally. They sure needed them.

    I have the notion that Hannibal's reforms after the 2nd punic war were more economical and political in nature, yes?

    Entering the "what if" realm would be a nightmare because the possibilities are infinite. Sad really!
    Yes, and it's based on a what if Carthage had won the second punic war that I will soon release a new unit for my submod, an elite African spearmen with scutum and mail armour

    Some years after the 2nd punic war, Hannibal was elected Shofet of Carthage and he soon realised that the ruling class were a band of corrupts that only cared of enriching themselves and started doing some economic reforms to help recover Carthage. But since the Shofet office only lasted one year, after it finished, some disgrunted Carthaginians conspired with the Romans saying that Hannibal was planning another war against Rome with the Seleucid Basileus and Hannibal had no option but to flee from Carthage.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Looked at your concept of the unit and can't wait for it to come out and use it in my campaigns. Can't really role play my way to use the sacred band...

    Only another great example of excellent decision making by the Carthage and its people.

  17. #17
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Raiuga View Post
    Looked at your concept of the unit and can't wait for it to come out and use it in my campaigns. Can't really role play my way to use the sacred band...

    Only another great example of excellent decision making by the Carthage and its people.
    Yeah, me neither. The sacred band was "out of service" during this time period. They still serve as an elite noble carthaginian unit but their presence in the armies should be really low and not overseas.

    So prepare yourself to use the Exalted African Infantry units that comes with 252 men (250 + 1 officer and 1 standardbearer). Yes, you have read it correctly, they will be 252 men on huge size. The cons is that they will only be recruitable in the Barcid capital in Iberia and you will have to wait 50 turns to recruit a new unit. Their numbers are meant to represent your last line of veterans like in the battle of Zama. They will also be the most expensive unit in the game (due to being elite and having a huge size).

  18. #18
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    So prepare yourself to use the Exalted African Infantry units that comes with 252 men (250 + 1 officer and 1 standardbearer). Yes, you have read it correctly, they will be 252 men on huge size. The cons is that they will only be recruitable in the Barcid capital in Iberia and you will have to wait 50 turns to recruit a new unit. Their numbers are meant to represent your last line of veterans like in the battle of Zama. They will also be the most expensive unit in the game (due to being elite and having a huge size).
    That's ridiculously overpowered. Sure you'll pay for it, but they'll curbstomp any other unit they come across. Elite units are smaller than regular ones for a reason, that's completely unbalanced.

  19. #19
    Lusitanio's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Hypothetical Reforms and when to get them

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That's ridiculously overpowered. Sure you'll pay for it, but they'll curbstomp any other unit they come across. Elite units are smaller than regular ones for a reason, that's completely unbalanced.
    Well, they are meant to be only one unit per stack and to follow through many years of campaign without any replacement. I couldn't create a small elite unit to represent the veterans But yeah, they will be pretty powerful, let's see, I still have to get the unit model working in the game and then I will test some battles.

    Edit: Look, Post-Marian Legionary First Cohort are 240 men on the battlefield and have a refresh rate of 0,048 and a pool cap of 6. This unit will have 250 men and a refresh rate of 0,016 (changed the value to be longer)and a pool cap of 2. What I could change is the unit movement speed but again, I still need to do some tests.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; Today at 06:45 AM.

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