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Is it Game Over on the climate front? - Page 6
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Thread: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

  1. #101
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post


    No “debate about the science.” Again I am looking at rocks that have been the same ocean level since I was a kid, yet this time we’ve only got 12 years. Such utter bull and it’s getting worse and worse.
    Sure. You're Looking at rocks and therefore your opinion is superior. *facepalm*

  2. #102
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Sure. You're Looking at rocks and therefore your opinion is superior. *facepalm*
    I know right? It's almost like i'm a heretic for not listening to the church of global warming.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  3. #103
    dogukan's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Seriously mate, this is getting ridiculous. Do you even realize the line of your argument?

    Do you even ubderstand what science, experiment and scientific method is and how global scientific community functions?

    This is like pre-descartes europe all over right now and I struggle to understand how people dont get the role of science and how it works at this day and age in a western country....


    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  4. #104
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Beyond other folks telling you to, what changes have you seen in your lifetime to warrant listening to junk science?
    I am from Switzerland. Changes here are quite important, glaciers are shredding, we have far less snow, more often heatwaves and changing precipitation patterns and regimes.

    Finally, the properties of CO2 to block infrared radiation is something I use regularly to analyze the Total Carbon content of a water. The sample is acidified and burned and the gases are analyzed according to their spectral properties at specific wavelengths.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    More extreme wild fires and desertification processes have been become more common in my country. Also weather in seasons has changed from traditional seasoned weather.

  6. #106
    Stario's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    More extreme wild fires and desertification processes have been become more common in my country. Also weather in seasons has changed from traditional seasoned weather.

    However; worthy of *note, C02 is NOT the principle driver of climate change- for example our Sun provides 99.9% of the energy that drives the worlds climate systems & its solar winds shield us from galactic cosmic rays shown to influence global cloud cover & therefore temperature etc...
    Mars, Triton, Jupiter, Pluto all show global warming, pointing to the Sun as the dominant influence in determining climate throughout the solar system.

    Looking at historical records we also know that C02 increases occurred on average 800 years after the temperatures increased. Furthermore, ^ levels of C02 did not inhibit in any way the subsequent fall in temp's that regularly occurred, plunging the world into another ice age.






    Last edited by Stario; March 22, 2019 at 08:09 AM.

  7. #107
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post

    However; worthy of *note, C02 is NOT the principle driver of climate change- for example our Sun provides 99.9% of the energy that drives the worlds climate systems & its solar winds shield us from galactic cosmic rays shown to influence global cloud cover & therefore temperature etc...


    Scientists have known about the greenhouse effect since 1824, when Joseph Fourier calculated that the Earth would be much colder if it had no atmosphere. This natural greenhouse effect is what keeps the Earth's climate livable. Without it, the Earth's surface would be an average of about 60 degrees Fahrenheit (33 degrees Celsius) cooler.

    See the calculations on the website of the American Chemical Society:
    https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...gyfromsun.html
    https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...peratures.html

    Here a picture summarizing:


    TP is the average temperature predicted without taking in account the atmosphere. Tobs is the real average temperature observed. See the effect on Earth and Venus.

    Here the Earth's energy budget from satellite data:



    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post

    Mars, Triton, Jupiter, Pluto all show global warming, pointing to the Sun as the dominant influence in determining climate throughout the solar system.



    "Moving on to the particulars, in the cases of Pluto and Triton, Neptune's largest moon, the observed warming is due to their current orientation to and distance from the Sun — technically known as summer.

    Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989 and is now moving away, but it is still relatively close. It's not that surprising for the greatest warmth to come a little after the closest approach, any more than it is for afternoons to be warmer than noons. And Triton's orbit is giving its southern hemisphere a particularly hot summer, boiling off frozen material from the southern pole and thickening the atmosphere, keeping in even more heat.
    On Jupiter, things are a little different. The patterns of circulation seem to be changing, such that heat at the equator is stuck there, and higher latitudes are getting a little cooler.
    On Mars, the warming seems to be down to dust blowing around and uncovering big patches of black basaltic rock that heat up in the day (see 'Mars hots up'). No change in sunshine required.
    To take this disparate hodge-podge of phenomena and try to construct a theory of solar influence from it is the sort of foolishness people get driven to when desperate to support a failed theory, or just for a chance to muddy the waters."


    "It is also worth noting that the Sun's radiance is measured from Earth orbit, and these records do not show it increasing over the past few decades, except with the regular rise and fall of the solar cycle. This second fact, you might think, should be enough to scupper the theory about system-wide solar warming on its own; strangely it is notably absent from accounts of the matter."


    https://www.nature.com/news/2007/070.../070402-7.html

    "Other planets in the solar system are not warming. There is a small amount of evidence of seasonal changes in parts of the solar system, but there is no evidence of global warming anywhere--except on Earth."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ccb40036faaa




    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post

    Looking at historical records we also know that C02 increases occurred on average 800 years after the temperatures increased. Furthermore, ^ levels of C02 did not inhibit in any way the subsequent fall in temp's that regularly occurred, plunging the world into another ice age.
    A fundamental misconception about the role that carbon dioxide plays in glacial transitions has helped fuel the argument that the lag time between temperature and CO2 in the paleoclimate record casts doubt on carbon dioxide as an important greenhouse gas.

    There are many other important interactions between temperature changes and the carbon cycle and many outstanding questions are only beginning to be answered by paleoclimatologists. However, the role of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses as a feedback to Milankovitch forcings during glacial and interglacial transitions provides a compelling explanation for observed changes. Jeff Severinghaus, professor of geosciences at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, succinctly explains:
    "The contribution of CO2 to the glacial-interglacial coolings and warmings amounts to about one-third of the full amplitude, about one-half if you include methane and nitrous oxide. So one should not claim that greenhouse gases are the major cause of the ice ages. No credible scientist has argued that position (even though Al Gore implied as much in his movie). The fundamental driver has long been thought, and continues to be thought, to be the distribution of sunshine over the Earth’s surface as it is modified by orbital variations … The greenhouse gases are best regarded as a biogeochemical feedback, initiated by the orbital variations, but then feeding back to amplify the warming once it is already underway."


    https://www.yaleclimateconnections.o...limate-system/

    For a demonstration, see: https://www.clim-past.net/7/1415/201...-1415-2011.pdf
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  8. #108
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    I am from Switzerland. Changes here are quite important, glaciers are shredding, we have far less snow, more often heatwaves and changing precipitation patterns and regimes.

    Finally, the properties of CO2 to block infrared radiation is something I use regularly to analyze the Total Carbon content of a water. The sample is acidified and burned and the gases are analyzed according to their spectral properties at specific wavelengths.
    A little google research shows yore glaciers have been melting since before the industrial revolution began. It was a result of the ending of the little ice age. Don't let the junk science fool you.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  9. #109
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    "It is also worth noting that the Sun's radiance is measured from Earth orbit, and these records do not show it increasing over the past few decades, except with the regular rise and fall of the solar cycle. This second fact, you might think, should be enough to scupper the theory about system-wide solar warming on its own; strangely it is notably absent from accounts of the matter."
    I´m know I´m totally nitpicking but there is slight increasing factor in Sun´s luminosity over time

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_Earth
    The energy generation of the Sun is based upon thermonuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium. This occurs in the core region of the star using the proton–proton chain reaction process. Because there is no convection in the solar core, the helium concentration builds up in that region without being distributed throughout the star. The temperature at the core of the Sun is too low for nuclear fusion of helium atoms through the triple-alpha process, so these atoms do not contribute to the net energy generation that is needed to maintain hydrostatic equilibrium of the Sun.[69]


    At present, nearly half the hydrogen at the core has been consumed, with the remainder of the atoms consisting primarily of helium. As the number of hydrogen atoms per unit mass decreases, so too does their energy output provided through nuclear fusion. This results in a decrease in pressure support, which causes the core to contract until the increased density and temperature bring the core pressure into equilibrium with the layers above. The higher temperature causes the remaining hydrogen to undergo fusion at a more rapid rate, thereby generating the energy needed to maintain the equilibrium.[69]


    The result of this process has been a steady increase in the energy output of the Sun. When the Sun first became a main sequence star, it radiated only 70% of the current luminosity. The luminosity has increased in a nearly linear fashion to the present, rising by 1% every 110 million years.[71] Likewise, in three billion years the Sun is expected to be 33% more luminous. The hydrogen fuel at the core will finally be exhausted in five billion years, when the Sun will be 67% more luminous than at present. Thereafter the Sun will continue to burn hydrogen in a shell surrounding its core, until the luminosity reaches 121% above the present value. This marks the end of the Sun's main sequence lifetime, and thereafter it will pass through the subgiant stage and evolve into a red giant.[1]
    This small change over time will for example affect carbon-silicate cycle to the point that in 600/800 millions years it will affect plate tectonics, C4/C3 photosynthesis and other crap slowly grilling Earth into Mercury style rock without water, life and atmosphere.. And before anybody will start using my nuclear physics to support global warming via sun or other fun theory, this is very very very very slow change. This is mere note that the Sun will ultimately get us all. We will all burn alive!!!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...the_far_future
    Last edited by Daruwind; March 22, 2019 at 10:57 AM.

  10. #110
    Stario's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    "Moving on to the particulars, in the cases of Pluto and Triton, Neptune's largest moon, the observed warming is due to their current orientation to and distance from the Sun — technically known as summer.
    This pointing to the Sun/solar activity as the dominant influence in determining climate throughout the solar system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geneva
    The fundamental driver has long been thought, and continues to be thought, to be the distribution of sunshine over the Earth’s surface as it is modified by orbital variations … The greenhouse gases are best regarded as a biogeochemical feedback, initiated by the orbital variations, but then feeding back to amplify the warming once it is already underway."
    ..."sunshine over Earth surface", again pointing to the Sun/solar activity as the dominant influence in determining climate change.


    https://www.yaleclimateconnections.o...limate-system/

    Actually, your link confirmed that C02 concentration lag temperature changes by average of 800 years- "During both the transition in to and out of a glacial period, CO2 concentrations appear to lag temperature changes by an average of between 600 and 1,000 years".
    Temperature increased before C02 increased; C02 was more of a byproduct. As temp decreased the C02 would hover for several decades then decrease; detection of radioactive carbon point the blame squarely on volcanic activity. C02 was a by product of the heat causing more carbon to release. The lag in C02 levels was not due to a lag in the ice holding it.


    The link you post also attributes the mechanism of temperature change to Milankovitch cycles; this again pointing to the sun/solar activity as the dominant influence in determining climate change.
    Last edited by Stario; March 22, 2019 at 11:03 AM.

  11. #111
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    A little google research shows yore glaciers have been melting since before the industrial revolution began.
    Nope. Just after the industrial revolution. Not before.

    It was a result of the ending of the little ice age.
    Most Swiss glaciers have reached lower extension than the pre-little-ice-age period. Even lower than the small medieval optimum for some and they are showing increasing melting trends.

    Don't let the junk science fool you.
    Keep your propaganda and your Dunning-Kruger effect for you.

    By the way, you were still unable to explain this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Now explain me why the president’s Science Advisory Committee supported in 1965 the scientific basis about human-induced climate change through dioxide carbon emissions.
    http://www.climatefiles.com/climate-...arbon-dioxide/

    Why the National Academies published "Carbon Dioxide and Climate A Scientific Assessment" in 1979?
    https://www.nap.edu/catalog/12181/ca...fic-assessment

    Why so early then?

    Why Exxon knew this was already something scientifically based in 1982?
    https://insideclimatenews.org/sites/...e%20Effect.pdf
    http://www.climatefiles.com/exxonmob...nhouse-effect/
    This pointing to the Sun/solar activity as the dominant influence in determining climate throughout the solar system.
    Which is related to orbital parameters in this case right? This is not the current situation for the Earth:
    http://biocycle.atmos.colostate.edu/shiny/Milankovitch/

    How can you explain that Venus is the hottest planet and not Mercury then?

    ..."sunshine over Earth surface", again pointing to the Sun/solar activity as the dominant influence in determining climate change.
    Again, in this case this is due to changes in orbital parameters, which is not the current situation now. Think about the time scale and about the direction of the change.



    Actually, your link confirmed that C02 concentration lag temperatures changes by average of 800 years
    And the link confirmed that greenhouse gases accounted as much as the change in solar forcing by changes in orbital parameters. I.e. "The contribution of CO2 to the glacial-interglacial coolings and warmings amounts to about one-third of the full amplitude, about one-half if you include methane and nitrous oxide"
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Keep your propaganda and your Dunning-Kruger effect for you.
    Savage.


    JP, I didn't know you were such a postmodernist.
    Last edited by The spartan; March 22, 2019 at 12:35 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  13. #113

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    To lighten some of the climate depression in this thread, here's some good news for Coral reefs under severe threat from Climate Change (and which are vital for about 25% of marine life and could trigger a an unstoppable collapse if they completely disappear):

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-are-taking-extreme-steps-to-help-corals-survive/


    So apparently they've discovered that fragmenting corals, which usually take decades to reach sexual maturity, makes them grow 20-50 times faster. In addition corals from the same parent will not only grow to back to their former size, but upon contact recognize each other and morph into larger corals still. What this means is that in restoration work we can now reach decades of progress in weeks, and large scale rebuilding of damaged and dead colonies is now possible. This method has also collapsed the price of coral restoration, and combined with other methods we can not only breathe new life into the existing reefs, but help promote and spread genetic strands that are more resistant to the effects of warming oceans.

    Additionally, scientists have discovered a feedback loop that might actually help stabilise the Ice Sheets in the West Antarctic instead of destroying them further. Won't be much comfort if the temperature rises far above 2 celcius, which it will unless evermore robust action is taken and the fossil fuel industry isn't beaten to pulp in the coming decades. But from experience I'd say much of the denialism and wilful ignorance comes from peoples unability to deal with the bleakness of the most catastrophic climate estimates. I find it important, from time to time, to show some of the reasons why the fight will yield results if we take it seriously.

    https://news.osu.edu/bedrock-in-west...ly-rapid-rate/

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