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Thread: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

  1. #1081
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Once again, the theory of evolution does not explain abiogenesis. It doesn't address it. Nor Darwin's Origin of Species. You are doing your maximum to ignore this fact but the theory of evolution is applied to living things. All the principles derived from the theory of evolution does not apply to abiogenesis which is more a chemical topic.

    We didn't argue about evolution. You had the feeling we were.

    I criticized canadafreepress, your source, because of their opposition against evolution. Then your misconception bring you to start a debate about the origin of life or abiogenesis. You added a video of Meyer talking specifically about it:



    You started it. Not I.



    I am not surprised you don't know the difference between the "Origin of Species" and the "Origin of Life". I am not surprised you didn't even try to understand what is the theory of evolution before to get your opinion on it. You did the same with climate change.




    I will make an important point that you will not understand, at best it's going to upset you.

    The hypothesis of God or any sort of intelligent being is not a scientific hypothesis. You cannot prove it and you cannot refute it. There is no protocol for that.

    Anything related to God or an intelligent design is refutation-proof.

    I cannot give you a conclusive answer on abiogenesis because no scientist can. This is still a topic with a lot of unknowns. There is no convincing explanation for abiogenesis yet.

    But when there is unknown or uncertainty, scientists see it only as an excitement, another expedition to explore new frontiers.

    People choosing the intelligent design are simply choosing the most boring and the laziest path. People choosing the intelligent design are only looking for certitude not knowledge. They are not trying to better understand the world around us, they are trying to paint the world around them to their understandings.

    If you want to choose the intelligent design, I promise you that you won't be disappointed. Not a single time. Nobody is able to produce a refutation of the intelligent design. The intelligent design is simply a new form of creationism, hiding behind scientific uncertainties. Since we will never reach an absolute understanding and certainty about our world, you are safe with the intelligent design.

    The intelligent design, AGW denial, the sphinx being much older than what is credible... this is simply the result of your certitudes about our society. This is a reflection of your thrust in our society. The certitude that scientists are working only to deceive people and to grab money.
    "...the answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind".

    The way leftists, atheists, and climate hoaxers dodge paradoxes always entertains me.

    I was going to break it down into parts, but what the heck, I'll just jump right in. First of all I never mentioned abiogenesis. You brought it up.

    Secondly, although it may have been anecdotal, it was Darwin who first mentioned life arising spontaneously from a primordial soup. Dr. Tour, whose accomplishments you will never even come close to achieving, was quite clear about the primordial soup fantasy and by extension the ill conceived abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is even less likely than you being able to change a tire on my truck and torque the nuts properly.

    The fact that you are outraged by a criticism of a theory concerning the creation of life that has been discredited is revealing. You say you're all about science but your unfounded belief in a theory that has been the subject of tens of thousands of lab hours over a period of sixty years and is now further away from any substantial proof than it started with is contradictory.

    As far as intelligent design, it does not claim divinity as the source for the coding that is obviously present. Just because fundamentalists latch onto it doesn't mean it is theologically based. It's odd that you would keep putting it in those terms. I doubt seriously you have read any of the books on it by some very credible people. You claim to be a curious person, but in this instance of "primordial" (I couldn't help myself) importance you're not even interested in researching it. You're willing to read anything against it, but nothing that argues its cause. That's you, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    At first I wanted to post details about my uni, my courses, how we work. But then I realized it doesnīt matter. You will cherry pick single word or sentence and wonīt discuss in good faith. You know what? Come study to us, we have even courses for elder people and various courses for public. That being said, once you demonstrate knowledge bare enough for master degree in nuclear and particle science, then we can talk. What? You are afraid you wonīt understand and wonīt be able to read a few books? Our students are working in CERN, DESY, FERMILAB and courses are quite modern with state or art technologies and hardware working on cutting edge problems.

    Single point which I actually want to discuss. Manipulated data, we have whole courses about statistics and various aspects like human factor. Actually yes! I manipulate data for my students and try to teach them how to discover such errors, prevent them or limit the damage. Data itself is wortless, you have always to interpret data and work with them. And sometimes you get pretty hilarious stuff.
    https://home.cern/news/press-release...ern-gran-sasso

    But you have to understand where is actually a problem..
    https://indico.cern.ch/event/591374/...PWA-Barlow.pdf

    Anyway. What I want to discuss.
    https://indico.cern.ch/event/825688/...daq_at_lhc.pdf

    Page 15+ I bet you will call our work with data manipulation and it is. We have to in advance set our triggers so we can try to find certain stuff. Because we have no capicity to store all data fast enough. Are we missing some strange new physics, which looks like something ordinary? Maybe, who knows. We have to work in best faith and count in all possible errors. Iīm quite curious what you will say about our precise physics. Come on,have some great commentary. Show us that you understand even quantum chronodynamics, quantm fields and particle models.

    And I bet you wonīt be able to understand my point. Donīt worry, just having fun. (basically ignoring whatever you are saying...99% of it, making points in my field of work and LOLing around aaaand changing goal and topic on the fly)
    I've noticed in every post you have a burning desire to prove to people how intelligent you are. Hey, I'm all for people feeling good about themselves so I'll toss you a bone, "Hey Daruwind, you're a smart guy. I mean, a really, really smart guy!"

    Hope that helps.

    I was going to brush off your "question" about "your facility" because I wasn't sure if there was a question there. I assumed it was just showcasing. But hey, I'm a curious guy and I did browse through it. I noticed your operating potential was at 10-13 torr and I have to admit, that's pretty darn good; out past near earth orbit equivalent anyway. So I have a question, how long does it take to achieve that in such a large vacuum tube/chamber? A month?

    While I was browsing through it, I remembered I was offered a job on the super collider project back in the day (hey I've been offered a lot of good positions in my life. Heck, I was even asked to come out of retirement once. I must have been doing something right).

    Anyway, I didn't take the job, but I did have occasion to work with an engineer from it when the project shut down. Ultimately, my old brain recalled your question about quantum fuzzy wuzzy and it occurred to me that had I taken that job you might have ended up working on a collider project right here in Texas. Considering the weirdness of the quantum fuzzy wuzzy business, I thought: Wow! That guy could have ended up working for me. Imagine that! Me giving you orders and you taking orders from me. Don't laugh, somewhere in another dimension far, far away, it might be happening even as I write this. Sweet dreams.

  2. #1082
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    I was going to brush off your "question" about "your facility" because I wasn't sure if there was a question there. I assumed it was just showcasing. But hey, I'm a curious guy and I did browse through it. I noticed your operating potential was at 10-13 torr and I have to admit, that's pretty darn good; out past near earth orbit equivalent anyway. So I have a question, how long does it take to achieve that in such a large vacuum tube/chamber? A month?
    It was about working with data. When I consider what you are usually calling data manipulation, then I have no idea how even start with our data handling. And because I have some insight why, where, how...Especially when considering how much raw data we are actually discarding....then by your definition whole current particle physics should be called off

    About how long it takes. Actually i tried to look it up. There are multiple systems that requires cooling.. one for beam pipes, for insulating cryogenically cooled magnets and of course insulation of helium distribution line. Not counting various experiments and systems all around. But focusing just on beam pipe where it matters. Around two weeks.
    https://home.cern/science/engineerin...rstellar-space
    But from personal experience, restarting system after winter break or after some accidents can usually uncover other problems. So usually it is taking some time to get whole system up and running. Just because we bring LHC online and cool down doesnīt mean something else cannot break down especially when considering such high difference in temperature, voltage...I remember a lot sleeping nights in control room a few years back just because Proton Booster went offline, high voltage got off or some coolant leakage or whatever...



    I thought: Wow! That guy could have ended up working for me. Imagine that! Me giving you orders and you taking orders from me. Don't laugh, somewhere in another dimension far, far away, it might be happening even as I write this. Sweet dreams.
    Then I hope you would count numbers little more carefully in such reality. You know mistake here, mistake there and soon Earth is consumed by black hole ;-)
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  3. #1083
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    It was about working with data. When I consider what you are usually calling data manipulation, then I have no idea how even start with our data handling. And because I have some insight why, where, how...Especially when considering how much raw data we are actually discarding....then by your definition whole current particle physics should be called off

    About how long it takes. Actually i tried to look it up. There are multiple systems that requires cooling.. one for beam pipes, for insulating cryogenically cooled magnets and of course insulation of helium distribution line. Not counting various experiments and systems all around. But focusing just on beam pipe where it matters. Around two weeks.
    https://home.cern/science/engineerin...rstellar-space
    But from personal experience, restarting system after winter break or after some accidents can usually uncover other problems. So usually it is taking some time to get whole system up and running. Just because we bring LHC online and cool down doesnīt mean something else cannot break down especially when considering such high difference in temperature, voltage...I remember a lot sleeping nights in control room a few years back just because Proton Booster went offline, high voltage got off or some coolant leakage or whatever...




    Then I hope you would count numbers little more carefully in such reality. You know mistake here, mistake there and soon Earth is consumed by black hole ;-)
    Thanks for the link. When I get time I might look into that system a little more just out of curiosity. Two weeks is pretty good time considering the size and complexity. That's a lot of vacuum seals and it doesn't take much to throw a high vacuum system out of kilter. To get that result requires some highly skilled and dedicated craftsmen during assembly and operation. I have to say, I'm impressed!

    It looks to be to operate similar to the old systems I was familiar with. To achieve that level of vacuum required several stages. First, the roughing pumps would bring the system down to 600 microns. At that point the vacuum blowers would come on. That all happened fairly quickly (a few hours). Once down to around 10-4 the internal LN2 piping would come on and at 10-5 the diffusion pumps could start to be effective (heated from the bottom with interior cooling lines and oil vaporization to capture particles). Once low enough the liquid helium could be introduced without excess vapor expansion and subsequent wasteful gas off. Ultimate capability was the same as yours, 10-14. If I'm not mistaken your ion pumps don't require oil.
    Last edited by B. W.; September 18, 2020 at 01:51 PM.

  4. #1084
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Intresting article I had not enough time to go through
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...0-05521-x#Abs1
    Basically new more detailed model
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  5. #1085
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    The data are manipulated, Biden stole the election, the Sphinx was built by an antediluvian civilization, Darwin's theory is a scam.

    Open your eyes Daruwind. This is a global conspiracy.
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    https://qz.com/2055951/climeworks-is...utm_source=YPL

    Seriously? A machine that costs who knows how much, able to do what 10 hectares of forest could do? With the machine's cost at 100$ per ton cost compared to a few $ worth of watering the trees, and it's hailed as a serious solution to a problem orders of magnitude larger than this?

    NOTE: I am not a climate change denialist. But doing that in Iceland that is practically empty, when they could spend a fraction of the money and bring in good soil and plant not 10, but 100 hectares of cold-resistant trees? This is absurd.
    "We do that with geothermal energy!!!"
    Oh, reaaaaaaaally? First, geothermal is not completely emission-free. Second and much more important: Use that geothermal energy to heat the ground of the 100 hectares, similar to how we heat airport airfields, so that you could use better and faster-growing plants.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 07, 2021 at 01:25 PM.
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  7. #1087
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://qz.com/2055951/climeworks-is...utm_source=YPL

    Seriously? A machine that costs who knows how much, able to do what 10 hectares of forest could do? With the machine's cost at 100$ per ton cost compared to a few $ worth of watering the trees, and it's hailed as a serious solution to a problem orders of magnitude larger than this?

    NOTE: I am not a climate change denialist. But doing that in Iceland that is practically empty, when they could spend a fraction of the money and bring in good soil and plant not 10, but 100 hectares of cold-resistant trees? This is absurd.
    "We do that with geothermal energy!!!"
    Oh, reaaaaaaaally? First, geothermal is not completely emission-free. Second and much more important: Use that geothermal energy to heat the ground of the 100 hectares, similar to how we heat airport airfields, so that you could use better and faster-growing plants.
    1. The idea is mostly to develop new technologies and to increase efficiency of carbon capture.
    2. Trees and forests take decades to reach maturity.
    3. The global potential of a huge reforestation program is interesting but largely smaller than the amount we emit each year. An amount that is still increasing. We are currently emitting around 10 gigatons of carbon per year. A recent study* suggested it is plausible to launch a massive reforestation program over 0.9 billion hectares for capturing 205 gigatons of carbon (a number greatly exaggerated in regard to the uncertainties about this estimation but whatever). 205 gigatons of carbon represent 20 years of our current emission. Reforesting a really huge portion of the globe would only buy us 20 years at the best. That's the scale of the issue right now.
    4. Developing carbon capture technologies AND reforesting aren't necessarily contradicting each other.
    5. The idea behind capturing CO2 is also to close the carbon cycle and to make the CO2 captured a product for our industries and our economy**. With carbon pricing, this could result in a financial incentive to develop those processes.


    *https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tion_potential
    *https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.aax0848

    **https://www.cell.com/current-biology...14)00767-2.pdf
    **https://www.researchgate.net/publica...gy_an_overview
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  8. #1088
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    "2. Trees and forests take decades to reach maturity."

    Indeed. That's why I said "100 hectares" instead of "10 hectares" and I suggested using warmth from geothermal to ensure that fast-growing plants can grow. PS. I doesn't have to be trees but even saplings do draw some carbon.

    "3. [...] We are currently emitting around 10 gigatons of carbon per year. [...] Reforesting a really huge portion of the globe would only buy us 20 years at the best. That's the scale of the issue right now."
    The main issue that I have with the ORCA thingy is that it costs too much to do too little at very high cost.
    We emit more than 10 gigatons of carbon per year, that figure is old and doesn't take into account some agricultural activities I think.
    And a crappy machine that needs to be build and then fed electricity to take a few kt of CO2 is a waste of time at this point. It would be good in 1971, when we had 40 years to reach the place we are now.
    By the time this tech gets somewhere ... it would be too late.
    Effectively, you try to fight California's wild-fires with a water-pistol and spending money and time to develop slightly better water-pistols.

    You won't get to 200 gigatons with ORCA in 20 years. Or even 10 gigatons in 20 years. And we don't have 50 years for ORCA to get to 200 gigatons.

    The massive reforestation you talk about, this is doable right now. Not at that size and still at a great cost, but doable. Plant fast-growing trees and move soil to make them take hold.
    Not only it would buy us ... 4-5 years, but it would also mitigate the pains brought by Climate change; i.e. if you plant crops instead of trees and use desalinized water (with solar energy) to water them, you would have food when the 5-year-long draughts arrive.

    "5. The idea behind capturing CO2 is also to close the carbon cycle and to make the CO2 captured a product for our industries and our economy**. [...]"
    Nobody said those trees can't be fruit trees or olive trees. Nobody said they have to be trees. Aloe Vera is an decent choice. Wheat is not bad either.

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/e...climate-change
    "planting cover crops on land that once sat empty helped the McCarty farms in Kansas and Nebraska pull 6,922 tons of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and store it in the soil across some 12,300 acres—as much as could have been stored by 7,300 acres of forest. Put another way: The farm soil had sucked up the emissions of more than 1,300 cars."

    My point:
    Instead of building machines, use the money, resources and time to make badlands and wastelands more flora-friendly.
    And yes, when it must happen, steal land from other flora. Sure, the Steppes are nice. Now take 5% of them and turn them to forest, or at least higher-biomass land.

    4. "Developing carbon capture technologies AND reforesting aren't necessarily contradicting each other."
    Developing carbon capture technologies for industrial complexes that would operate anyway is not contradicting reforesting.
    But developing a machine that does what a forest does, but requires geothermal plants (see: Iceland and a few other places) is a colossal waste of resources and brain-power. Pull the plug of that and get the $$$$ to develop ways to turn wastelands to less-wastelands, to make mountains more green and expand crops.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 07, 2021 at 04:00 PM.
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  9. #1089
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    And yes, when it must happen, steal land from other flora. Sure, the Steppes are nice. Now take 5% of them and turn them to forest, or at least higher-biomass land.
    Steppes and other grasslands are actually already very good at keeping carbon underground and their carbon density is comparable to forests. You won't gain much by converting a natural steppe to a forest.

    Indeed. That's why I said "100 hectares" instead of "10 hectares" and I suggested using warmth from geothermal to ensure that fast-growing plants can grow. PS. I doesn't have to be trees but even saplings do draw some carbon.
    How do you imagine heating a 100 hectares of forest through geothermal energy? Miles of underground pipes with circulating water? Is it really cheaper?

    You won't get to 200 gigatons with ORCA in 20 years. Or even 10 gigatons in 20 years. And we don't have 50 years for ORCA to get to 200 gigatons.
    Coal represents by itself an emission of around 4 gigatons of carbon each year. Coal is the least defensible of energy sources. The easiest and fastest solution to buy us time is putting a carbon price worldwide.

    Nobody said those trees can't be fruit trees or olive trees. Nobody said they have to be trees. Aloe Vera is an decent choice. Wheat is not bad either.
    Fruit production is generally a source of carbon emission more than a sink. You cannot imagine you let a thousand of ha growing fruits naturally and that you come collect them with ease. That's actually an industrial process.

    But developing a machine that does what a forest does, but requires geothermal plants (see: Iceland and a few other places) is a colossal waste of resources and brain-power. Pull the plug of that and get the $$$$ to develop ways to turn wastelands to less-wastelands, to make mountains more green and expand crops.
    The thing is: we could potentially mimic a process done by nature more efficiently and capture more CO2 by hectare than trees. Photosynthesis is not a very efficient process in comparison of industry standards. There is still a huge amount of development necessary to achieve this but it could unlock the possibility to produce almost carbon neutral synthetic fuel, synthetic plastic and other resources we actually derived from oil industries. There are some areas where an alternative to fuel isn't available nor plausible. Flight for example. Electric or hydrogen planes are an illusion. A synthetic fuel would be much more efficient.

    But in the end, does our opinion really matter? I mean those are private initiatives. If we put in place an efficient carbon market worldwide, it would be mostly private companies that would choose what are the best solutions.
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  10. #1090
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    I am not saying we should jail those people, I say that I am saddened they use their ingenuity to do something so inefficient when they could be spending their resources going after solutions that we have the time for instead of "what ifs" for 40 years later.


    As for coal:
    https://www.iea.org/reports/global-e.../co2-emissions
    4 Gt as you say out of 9 Gt.

    However... that's the energy we use! Making it more expensive will not help much; the increase in price will lead to a decrease in the quality of life. The best solution, not easiest, the best, is to go for cleaner forms of energy.

    But, unlike ORCA, we could actually do both reforestation and move from Coal to natural gas (for a few years) and solar/wind/geothermal.
    Geothermal is actually not that expensive if you go big.


    "How do you imagine heating a 100 hectares of forest through geothermal energy? Miles of underground pipes with circulating water? Is it really cheaper?"
    Not miles of underground pipes. Large iron bars that conduct heat 2 meters below the surface if you go for trees, or 1 meter below the surface if you go for other kind of flora.

    "Fruit production is generally a source of carbon emission more than a sink. You cannot imagine you let a thousand of ha growing fruits naturally and that you come collect them with ease. That's actually an industrial process."
    For some fruits, yes. For Olives, not so much. And that guy's farms from my earlier link was giving a significant net sink.
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  11. #1091
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Curiously... and perhaps as a predictor of what might end up happening on a wider scale...

    News Corp in Australia is preparing for a significant shift in it's position on climate change, and already having conversations internally with the high profile climate sceptics within it's editorial ranks. It will be curious as to whether this signals or indicates a shift within the broader global News Corp family.
    Last edited by antaeus; September 10, 2021 at 01:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    https://www.reuters.com/business/sus...nt-2021-10-04/

    Much better ways to capture CO2 than store it in the ground using very expensive means (like the one I discussed with Genava a few posts above).
    While those suggestions may not be enough by themselves, they're inherently better that simply pay absurd amounts of money to trap miniscule amounts of CO2 in the ground.
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  14. #1094
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    An interesting video about ozone depletion and its relationship to climate:


    Another one about nuclear energy and its potential for transition:
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    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/minig...-remote-areas/

    Interesting renewable... I am not sure what they do with the gas products, if anything, but still better than most fossil fuels. At 0.2$ / kWh it is expensive... but it is affordable. We should slowly realize that energy prices SHOULD raise. That would drive low-energy investments or renewable / clean alternatives.
    It certainly won't be pretty and I am sad thinking how much it would cost around here in the summer (I am in Southern Europe). My personal quality of life will take a hit. But... it has to be done.

    Meanwhile I may convince my landlady to invest in some of those paints that block heat. I have already covered some windows I don't use with aluminum foil and it DID reduce the house's temperature.
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    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  16. #1096
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,355

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    ...My personal quality of life will take a hit. But... it has to be done.

    Meanwhile I may convince my landlady to invest in some of those paints that block heat. I have already covered some windows I don't use with aluminum foil and it DID reduce the house's temperature.
    We need to get on our Omega Grindset bro.

    Wake up at 3AM, 15 minutes of cardio on Tesla ChargeBike to prime Tesla Battery.
    Breakfast: ashes (carbon based lifeform, you'll get used to the taste).
    Drain mattress condenser (stay hydrated) so you can sell your plasma to capitalise next step.
    Rent an hour at the Amazon Silico generator: you'll need a degree in physics to build your own nuke (which you prepped last night).
    Nuke Mt Etna. You'll thank me later.
    Wrangle lava flow through Silico's adapted hydro turbine (green as they come).
    Take your 3% of energy generated (Bezos head refrigerator and orbital lounge uses most of the available power on earth by this time) to cool your sleeping pod to 49' centigrade (practically cryotherapy)
    Your cat left the catflap open: its cooked by the the you get home (more protein for high T).
    Blast 15 different Alex Jones podcasts (throw in a Joe Rogan to confuse your brain muscles) during your nightly workout suppressing living quarter carpet fires: you won't understand (yet).
    Buy the earth's core, flip it. Buy the earths entire supply of gold, if it hasn't already vaporised.
    Rinse and re...oh wait.

    Weak jokes aside its getting grim now. Stupid arse denials have collapsed under the weight of their own dishonesty, there's a few shills running delaying tactics now for the energy corporations. Maybe another fake oil war will get profits back up? The recent spate of fires has woken a lot of people up.

    In Australia the National Party is collapsing as a handful of mining-owned MPs hold our weak and corrupt coalition to ransom. We sell so much coal its not funny and out economy will take a huge gut punch, but we've had 10 years of inaction.

    Essentially a mixture of Murdoch misinformation and corruption has kept in a conservative government. They've played chicken with the climate emergency, actually hyping coal production (eg the extremely dodgy Adani venture) and positioning it as the economic saviour, hoping anyone enacting real climate amelioration measures will carry the can for the economic damage.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  17. #1097
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,419

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    In Australia the National Party is collapsing as a handful of mining-owned MPs hold our weak and corrupt coalition to ransom. We sell so much coal its not funny and out economy will take a huge gut punch, but we've had 10 years of inaction.
    Meanwhile....



    Authorised by the Department of Blah Blah Blah...

    Disclaimer: Somewhat appropriate, but NSFW language use... That is if you're not Australian - it's culturally appropriate language around here mate.
    Last edited by antaeus; October 27, 2021 at 10:46 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #1098
    Genava's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    1,025

    Default Re: Is it Game Over on the climate front?



    An interesting debate and it is related to the question of reforestation mentioned by alhoon
    LOTR mod for Shogun 2 Total War (Campaign and Battles!)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIywmAgUxQU

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