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Thread: Celtic Linothorax

  1. #21

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    You mean Robert Périchon? Is it really 1987 or 1967?
    Whoops, yes, sorry about the spelling and yes the text below the fig. states that it's 1987 not 67.

  2. #22
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Whoops, yes, sorry about the spelling and yes the text below the fig. states that it's 1987 not 67.
    Found it, "L’imagerie Celtique d’Aulnat" 1987. Thanks!
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    No one knows exactly how old tube and yoke armours are, they could have made their way there as early as that. The earliest suggestions are that the Myceneans, back in the late Bronze age came up with it, or perhaps the Assyrians. So it's hardly "new tech" in 5th century BC.
    I didn't say anything about it being "new tech", what I'm saying is that Glauberg is far away. It isn't only when, it is where. It sounds like a lot of speculation.

  4. #24
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    I didn't say anything about it being "new tech", what I'm saying is that Glauberg is far away. It isn't only when, it is where. It sounds like a lot of speculation.
    Celts were travelling to Italy and Sicily (and beyond) as mercenaries, so would have been seeing other people using this armour. Not to mention just before our period, a large group of Celts had just returned from raiding the Balkans. Furthermore, there were Phocaean Greeks in southern Gaul and north-east Iberia from 4th century.

    You don't think people, goods or ideas moved around?

  5. #25

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    I love that the Celts have linothorax style armor. It's a good medium between unarmored and mail armor. Also, the team has produced some visually stunning examples lately - the Adskoros come to mind.

    There is a historical basis for them, and that's great.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Considering the iron age trade to Pritain from Spain, illustrated by the Spanish origin of the copper knife found in the Stonehenge Amesbury Archer grave goods from between 2400 and 2200 BCE, and other known grave goods finds from distant regions it is not unreasonable to assume technology moves as relatively as it does today.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Celts were travelling to Italy and Sicily (and beyond) as mercenaries, so would have been seeing other people using this armour. Not to mention just before our period, a large group of Celts had just returned from raiding the Balkans. Furthermore, there were Phocaean Greeks in southern Gaul and north-east Iberia from 4th century.

    You don't think people, goods or ideas moved around?
    You are disregarding place and time again. To my knowledge, there were far fewer celtic mercenaries running around in the 5th century. Also, consider the location of Glauberg. Although greeks had settled in southern gaul, it is far away from Glauberg. Also, the celtic linothorax type armors don't even look like linothorax in the art. It might not have been transmitted, but it might have been its own thing.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Raging_Ferret View Post
    Considering the iron age trade to Pritain from Spain, illustrated by the Spanish origin of the copper knife found in the Stonehenge Amesbury Archer grave goods from between 2400 and 2200 BCE, and other known grave goods finds from distant regions it is not unreasonable to assume technology moves as relatively as it does today.
    Trading is different than having a technology, and in the case of the celtic linothorax there is nothing (that I know of) to indicate that it was a technology spread to them.

  9. #29
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    You are disregarding place and time again. To my knowledge, there were far fewer celtic mercenaries running around in the 5th century. Also, consider the location of Glauberg. Although greeks had settled in southern gaul, it is far away from Glauberg. Also, the celtic linothorax type armors don't even look like linothorax in the art. It might not have been transmitted, but it might have been its own thing.
    I'm doing no such thing. Glauberg isn't the sole source, and the southern coast was merely the exchange point between Greek/Italic/Carthaginian and Celtic worlds. Goods and people travelled back and forth using the waterways and other trade routes, those places were linked.

    You keep saying "look how far Glauberg is" - it's a much shorter distance than Tolosa to Makedonia and back. You're also making the mistake of assuming unless something is exactly like the Glauberg images, it can't be related.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; March 07, 2019 at 04:14 AM.

  10. #30
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    It is funny to see someone saying he is no historian but taking no precautions in his opinions and formulating them as affirmations and facts.
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  11. #31
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    The trade routes in the Hallstatt period.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Trading is different than having a technology, and in the case of the celtic linothorax there is nothing (that I know of) to indicate that it was a technology spread to them.
    All well and good but it's not like you're providing sources or citations to support that belief or opinion. Whatever way the cookie crumbles there's evidence for organic cuirasses among the Celts(which answers your initial question); their absence in EB1 is mainly a result of the many inaccuracies associated with the former Celtic FC to the mod. Again, such armor types are regularly depicted in historical textbooks written by scholars as well(which also partially answers your question about "how did you decide on the patterns and colors?"). As Genava already stated, most historians believe these armors to be either an example of a linothorax or of a leather cuirass, and the linothorax was not necessarily imported to the Celts. I think that you are being too stringent with your usage of the term "linothorax", by suggesting that merely because it doesn't resemble the greek depictions of a linothorax that it isn't a linothorax.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; March 07, 2019 at 09:18 AM.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I'm doing no such thing. Glauberg isn't the sole source, and the southern coast was merely the exchange point between Greek/Italic/Carthaginian and Celtic worlds. Goods and people travelled back and forth using the waterways and other trade routes, those places were linked.

    You keep saying "look how far Glauberg is" - it's a much shorter distance than Tolosa to Makedonia and back. You're also making the mistake of assuming unless something is exactly like the Glauberg images, it can't be related.
    Glauberg is the most interesting source because it is on the northern edge of hallstatt expansion. Sure the distance to Tolosa and Makedonia is greater, but travel by sea is possible. Also, it seems we aren't on the same wavelength. I understand that there was trade, but it can't be assumed that linothorax was spread through trade. I also didn't say that it couldn't be related, I just pointed out that it could be something different. Notice how I use words like "might" and "could" when I talk about this. It's because I don't know, but I am trying to imagine why.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    It is funny to see someone saying he is no historian but taking no precautions in his opinions and formulating them as affirmations and facts.
    I specifically use words like "might" or "could" because I don't know. I'm not making any statements meant to be fact, I'm just expressing skepticism based on information I have. I'm not even disagreeing with a greek transmission of linothorax, as I said I am just being skeptical. This comment doesn't help me understand anything better or make a suggestion. If you do have some sort of evidence to add, that would be helpful.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    All well and good but it's not like you're providing sources or citations to support that belief or opinion. Whatever way the cookie crumbles there's evidence for organic cuirasses among the Celts(which answers your initial question); their absence in EB1 is mainly a result of the many inaccuracies associated with the former Celtic FC to the mod. Again, such armor types are regularly depicted in historical textbooks written by scholars as well(which also partially answers your question about "how did you decide on the patterns and colors?"). As Genava already stated, most historians believe these armors to be either an example of a linothorax or of a leather cuirass, and the linothorax was not necessarily imported to the Celts. I think that you are being too stringent with your usage of the term "linothorax", by suggesting that merely because it doesn't resemble the greek depictions of a linothorax that it isn't a linothorax.
    I'm not providing sources because I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just being skeptical, and it seems that people are misunderstanding that. I'm not actually disagreeing. The original question has already been answered by Geneva as you said. To clarify things, I am using linothorax to refer to the greek style. I know that other linen armors are still linothorax, but I was making the distinction based on origin. I probably should have put it better or have been more consistent. What are your thoughts for celtic linothorax being derived from greek linothorax, and what evidence would there be?

  16. #36
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    Glauberg is the most interesting source because it is on the northern edge of hallstatt expansion. Sure the distance to Tolosa and Makedonia is greater, but travel by sea is possible. Also, it seems we aren't on the same wavelength. I understand that there was trade, but it can't be assumed that linothorax was spread through trade. I also didn't say that it couldn't be related, I just pointed out that it could be something different. Notice how I use words like "might" and "could" when I talk about this. It's because I don't know, but I am trying to imagine why.
    I think you completely missed the point I was making by referring to that journey. A band of Celts from Tolosa walked all the way to Makedonia, then some of them came back again. The band of Volkae even passed through the region near Glauberg. They had loot from Greece, which might have included armour they'd taken from dead Makedonians. They didn't take ships to do it, they walked and rode.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I think you completely missed the point I was making by referring to that journey. A band of Celts from Tolosa walked all the way to Makedonia, then some of them came back again. The band of Volkae even passed through the region near Glauberg. They had loot from Greece, which might have included armour they'd taken from dead Makedonians. They didn't take ships to do it, they walked and rode.
    I think I found the source of the misunderstanding. It sounds like you're thinking of the Volcae that were a part of the 279 BCE invasion of Greece, but that would be after the celtic linothorax would have already been invented. For example both the scabbard and the prince of Glauberg were created around the 5th century BCE, which would put the invention of the celtic linothorax well past 120 years of that event.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    What I mean by "well past 120 years of that event" I mean that those examples were at least around 120 years before that invasion.

  19. #39
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    I think I found the source of the misunderstanding. It sounds like you're thinking of the Volcae that were a part of the 279 BCE invasion of Greece, but that would be after the celtic linothorax would have already been invented. For example both the scabbard and the prince of Glauberg were created around the 5th century BCE, which would put the invention of the celtic linothorax well past 120 years of that event.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    What I mean by "well past 120 years of that event" I mean that those examples were at least around 120 years before that invasion.
    You're fixated on Glauberg, it was another instance of somewhere else the linothorax came in direct contact with Celts, and they also passed through the region.

    All of which is before our game-start.

  20. #40
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    I think I found the source of the misunderstanding. It sounds like you're thinking of the Volcae that were a part of the 279 BCE invasion of Greece, but that would be after the celtic linothorax would have already been invented. For example both the scabbard and the prince of Glauberg were created around the 5th century BCE, which would put the invention of the celtic linothorax well past 120 years of that event.
    I think there are better examples, like the Battle of Himera and the war of Dionysius I of Syracuse in Greece.
    https://books.google.ch/books?id=YOO...elts&source=bl

    But anyway, it is impossible to get older accounts from classical sources since they are incomplete, especially in the western part of the Mediterranean sea for the period before the 3rd century BC.

    What are your thoughts for celtic linothorax being derived from greek linothorax, and what evidence would there be?
    Personally I don't think it comes from the Greeks but from the Etruscans. Since there are imitations of Etruscan jugs in the Glauberg burial:
    http://www.travellingthepast.com/germany/glauberg/
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