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Thread: Celtic Linothorax

  1. #1

    Default Celtic Linothorax

    This has probably been mentioned before, but what is the historical evidence for the linothorax look alike armor that the Celts use? With the exception of a couple alpine units, it was completely absent from the first game. It also has unique color patterns. How were these colors and patterns chosen? And lastly, what was the extent of the use of this type of armor, and why is it overlooked?

  2. #2
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    I'm waiting for a more detailed response from the historians, but if you think EB1 was the gold standard of historicity, especially when it comes to the Celts, you're mistaken. Have you forgotten the fantastical British roster, with elements like medieval mauls and bronze zweihanders? Even one of my favourites from EB1, the Keltohellenikoi, were a fiction. One of the "historians" from the EB1 team responsible for Celtic matters literally made things up.

    Tube and yoke armour is organic, there are no instances of it which survived from antiquity, which is why other sources are used to impute its presence. That's the same all over the map.

    Colours and patterns are based on artwork and designs dated back to the period/location, again more detail from the historians later.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    I never said EB1 was a gold standard of historicity in any way (though it probably was the best for RTW), as the two handed Briton swordsmen and other such units probably indicate. I actually thought the alpine units (like Tekastos) were using that creative liberty by wearing linothorax or some look alike, but come EB 2 most armored celtic units have it. Even though EB1 is far from the most accurate, I was just surprised a detail like that went under the radar.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    There's both the statue and a figurine from Glauberg showing a linothorax-like armor, those sitting cross-legged statues from S. France with that unique looking organic armor, some pottery fragments from Clermont-Ferrand depicting riders wearing what appears to be a padded/quilted/linothorax type armor and the arc d'orange has what appears to be a padded or quilted armor on it. It's hard to know the exact colors these might have been(some of the patterns can be made out on the statues though) so in that aspect I think it's both a combination of artistic license and using inspiration from re-enactors from textbooks(reliable source material). IIRC there's a textbook focusing on Celts in Italy where you can see where the inspiration for the Cisalpine Bataroi linothorax colors were taken from.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; March 04, 2019 at 10:48 AM. Reason: clarity

  5. #5

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Do you happen to have pictures or links to the mentioned examples? How common was the linothorax type armor?

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    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    Do you happen to have pictures or links to the mentioned examples? How common was the linothorax type armor?
    Scabbard from Austria (5th century BC):


    Glauberg statue (5th/4th century BC):


    Southern France statues:




    There are still two examples in vessel and dish services but I didn't have the references immediately. And there is a possible celtic linothorax on the Pergamon reliefs. Finally Pliny the Elder wrote something about Celts and Parthians using vinegar to produce resistant felt.
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    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    some pottery fragments from Clermont-Ferrand depicting riders wearing what appears to be a padded/quilted/linothorax type armor
    Clermont-Ferrand (Augustonemetum), thus Post-Gallic-Wars era? Or do you mean Gondole or Corent?
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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    The thing to consider here is that Celts popularised mail, thureos-type oval shields and possibly the use of precursor javelins. So why shouldn't they have adopted things they saw abroad by way of exchange, since they were all over the Mediterranean as mercenaries?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The thing to consider here is that Celts popularised mail, thureos-type oval shields and possibly the use of precursor javelins. So why shouldn't they have adopted things they saw abroad by way of exchange, since they were all over the Mediterranean as mercenaries?
    One thing to consider is that the prince of Glauberg and other artifacts mentioned are from the 5th century. I'm no historian, but for linothorax to make its way to Glauberg from the Mediterranean that early seems odd. Armor like the southern france example that the Epades Pennoberton wear seem to be pretty unique.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Somewhat tangential but I kinda liked the Celtic hoplites. From a game play perspective it's very neat to see how the new frontiers and cultures would affect your faction rooster and maybe even other aspects, kinda like the romanized units that certain factions got. However that would raise three issues.

    First off, it's quite deterministic. Adding romanized units to the mod in its time frame could prove jarring if the Republic is snuffed in its cradle by Carthage or Pyrro or some other contender. In that case it would be safer to use events that happened before to make such factional changes, like the Galatian migration and Alexander's journey, both of which already are affecting the factions in the area quite deeply.

    The other issue is if it would be plausible for a culture to be affected noticeably in game play by such events. Assuming that a Celtic empire is formed all the way to old Hellas, would be plausible for them as conquerors to adopt the fighting ways of the vanquished? Or Helens in the Celtic heartland to influence their new subjects into adopting a phalanx? As much as I would like to see the barbarian factions to adopt more "civilized" ways to get larger settlements or more complex government lines, I must acknowledge that I don't even know how to implement this in a good way.

    And finally, game play considerations. Would it really be a good idea to change a faction rooster this much? Celtic factions fight one way, Helens other. The restrictions each have in their rooster shapes strategic considerations and is part of the experience. As strategic restrictions as well are a point of balance. "Simple" squat development factions tend to have interesting trait lines that makes their generals and governors much more useful. If every faction ends as an amalgam of every culture in the map they will be dull.

    Anyway I trust the team to do what is wise and sorry for this aside.

  12. #12
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    One thing to consider is that the prince of Glauberg and other artifacts mentioned are from the 5th century. I'm no historian, but for linothorax to make its way to Glauberg from the Mediterranean that early seems odd. Armor like the southern france example that the Epades Pennoberton wear seem to be pretty unique.
    No one knows exactly how old tube and yoke armours are, they could have made their way there as early as that. The earliest suggestions are that the Myceneans, back in the late Bronze age came up with it, or perhaps the Assyrians. So it's hardly "new tech" in 5th century BC.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    The other issue is if it would be plausible for a culture to be affected noticeably in game play by such events. Assuming that a Celtic empire is formed all the way to old Hellas, would be plausible for them as conquerors to adopt the fighting ways of the vanquished? Or Helens in the Celtic heartland to influence their new subjects into adopting a phalanx?

    And finally, game play considerations. Would it really be a good idea to change a faction rooster this much? Celtic factions fight one way, Helens other. The restrictions each have in their rooster shapes strategic considerations and is part of the experience. As strategic restrictions as well are a point of balance. "Simple" squat development factions tend to have interesting trait lines that makes their generals and governors much more useful. If every faction ends as an amalgam of every culture in the map they will be dull.
    This touches upon the IMHO most problematic - from the point of view of "learning history" - issue in the game: how realistic are big empires in the game? For Rome, Carthage, Iranians, Hellenistic - pretty big, but for the Celtic, Germanic, Iberian? I think one to be very innovative and create some vision of reality that didn't exist. I don't have an opinion on the EBII yet (actually, it probably has the best solutions for all TW games), but in the SSHIP very strange outcomes are possible and for the Thrones as well.

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    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    One thing to consider is that the prince of Glauberg and other artifacts mentioned are from the 5th century. I'm no historian, but for linothorax to make its way to Glauberg from the Mediterranean that early seems odd.
    Contacts between the Mediterranean world and the North started earlier than 5th century BC. And linothorax is not necessarily imported.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture
    https://books.google.ch/books?id=KWV...page&q&f=false
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Contacts between the Mediterranean world and the North started earlier than 5th century BC. And linothorax is not necessarily imported.
    Glauberg is a few connections removed from the Mediterranean. I wasn't talking about importation, I was kind of getting at that it might be a different invention. None of the examples given really look like linothorax to me.

  16. #16
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    None of the examples given really look like linothorax to me.
    It is a matter of interpretation. Most of the historians interpret it as a linothorax or a leather cuirass. Linothorax is often thought to be something Greekish but in fact the Greeks themselves viewed this as a barbarian thing, used by cultures like the Scythians or the Lusitanians (yes there is an account of linen protection for them).
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    So why shouldn't they have adopted things they saw abroad by way of exchange, since they were all over the Mediterranean as mercenaries?
    You did mention EB1 making things up..

  18. #18

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Clermont-Ferrand (Augustonemetum), thus Post-Gallic-Wars era? Or do you mean Gondole or Corent?
    Not sure, but the fragment I was referring to is from Périchon, 1987(add an accent agu to the "e" in pechiron) and simply mentions it's from Clermont-Ferrand. The pattern on the warrior's torso in those pottery fragments looks a lot like the pictures of the leather curiasses on those cross-legged statues shown above.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; March 05, 2019 at 01:13 PM. Reason: spelling, whoops

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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooz View Post
    You did mention EB1 making things up..
    Not really equivalent when we have statuary evidence, amongst other things.

    Whereas the mails and zweihanders are a pure fiction.

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    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    Not sure, but the fragment I was referring to is from Pechiron, 1987(add an accent agu to the "e" in pechiron) and simply mentions it's from Clermont-Ferrand. The pattern on the warrior's torso in those pottery fragments looks a lot like the pictures of the leather curiasses on those cross-legged statues shown above.
    You mean Robert Périchon? Is it really 1987 or 1967?
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
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