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Celtic Linothorax - Page 3
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Thread: Celtic Linothorax

  1. #41

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    You're fixated on Glauberg, it was another instance of somewhere else the linothorax came in direct contact with Celts, and they also passed through the region.

    All of which is before our game-start.
    Of course I'm fixated on Glauberg. It has a life sized statue, is fairly old, and was on the edges of Hallstatt/La Téne expansion. In my mind, it is one of the best places (though not the only place) to build an understanding of the spread of celtic linothorax. It had to have to have originated before that time, and probably in a different place.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    I think there are better examples, like the Battle of Himera and the war of Dionysius I of Syracuse in Greece.
    https://books.google.ch/books?id=YOO...elts&source=bl

    But anyway, it is impossible to get older accounts from classical sources since they are incomplete, especially in the western part of the Mediterranean sea for the period before the 3rd century BC.



    Personally I don't think it comes from the Greeks but from the Etruscans. Since there are imitations of Etruscan jugs in the Glauberg burial:
    http://www.travellingthepast.com/germany/glauberg/
    That's cool. I didn't know there were celts at Himera. For the jars, what Etruscan jars are being imitated? When would this imitation have happened? Why do you think celtic linothorax looks so different than the Etruscan type? I know it's a bit late past the time period, but this fresco from the tomb of Orcus what looks closer to the greek type.

    http://ancientrome.ru/art/artworken/img.htm?id=227

    When do you think that celts would have first adopted linothorax from the Etruscans? Sorry if the questions are a bit hard, I know there isn't always anything concrete.

  3. #43
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post
    For the jars, what Etruscan jars are being imitated? When would this imitation have happened?
    Etruscan bronze jugs of 5-4 centuries BC are depicted in green in the map I'd provided.

  4. #44
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    For the jars, what Etruscan jars are being imitated?
    Bronze beaked oinochoe are a distinctive feature of the Etruscans. They were found since at least the 6th century BC, North to the Alps.
    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/255761

    When would this imitation have happened?
    Imitation between the North regions and the Mediterranean sea is very old. Bronze age swords were traded and imitated following the Amber roads:
    Naue II swords:


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tance_Mobility
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_1500-1100_bc

    About imitation: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...eedAccess=true


    Atlantic Bronze Age swords:


    http://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal...ndherm2014.pdf

    Why do you think celtic linothorax looks so different than the Etruscan type?
    Is it really?










    When do you think that celts would have first adopted linothorax from the Etruscans?
    Hard to say. Probably during the 6th century BC because the linothorax is becoming more popular everywhere during this period, contrary to bronze armors that became less popular among Hallstatt people. But since linen protection are attested since the Mycenaean period, it is difficult to know the starting date of this practice. Artistic representations are biased on several points.
    Last edited by Genava; March 09, 2019 at 03:41 AM.
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  5. #45
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Life of Marcellus, Plutarch 7: Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary’s breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him. Then leaping from his horse and laying his hands upon the armour of the dead, he looked towards heaven and said: “O Jupiter Feretrius, who beholdest the great deeds and exploits of generals and commanders in wars and fightings, I call thee to witness that I have overpowered and slain this man with my own hand, being the third Roman ruler and general so to slay a ruler and king, and that I dedicate to thee the first and most beautiful of the spoils. Do thou therefore grant us a like fortune as we prosecute the rest of the war.”
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  6. #46
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    From our Celtic lead:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus
    Evidence for linothorax style body armour is known from 5th century BC depictions, such as the stone statue from Vix, France, a stone statue and bronze castings from Glauberg, Germany or the ornate scabbard from Hallstatt, Austria. It is also known from a 4th-3rd century BC stone stelae from Bormio, Italy, as well as a 4th century chariot grave from Gorge-Meillet, France, and the stone statues from Roquepertuse, France. The colours are chosen partly on the basis of historical accounts, such as those of Strabo, who records that the Gauls took particular delight in bright colours in stripes and chequered patterns. They are also based on recurring colours which we find in artefacts. These include the use of red enamel on brooches and helmets, and the red-gold colour which is a particular feature of Belgic coinage. Finally we consider what colours could be easily produced using the various dyes which Iron Age peoples had access to. The extent of this type of armour appears to have been the areas from the Marne to northern Italy, the core of the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. It has likely been overlooked as (1) it is common to portray Celtic peoples being unarmoured (if not un-clothed) (2) it is not as immediately recognisable in graves and other contexts as chainmail.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Dare I ask about the team's stance on the leather vs linen debate? I dare!
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    This is the second time I'm hijacking this thread. I'm interested in Celtic culture, so I hope you'll forgive me.

    In game, some of the Gaisatoi actually wear pants and helmets. What was the reasoning behind it? They were kind of famous for fighting naked.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  9. #49
    Genava's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Dare I ask about the team's stance on the leather vs linen debate? I dare!

    I am not from the team, but in my opinion, the leather was pushed by reenactors for practical reasons. The chariot burial of Gorge-Meillet had four metallic buttons but no trace of leather around them.

    In game, some of the Gaisatoi actually wear pants and helmets. What was the reasoning behind it? They were kind of famous for fighting naked.
    Gaisatoi is the name of a tribe or a community of warriors. There is only one occurrence describing them naked. Others occurrences of naked Gallic warriors exist and are not related to the Gaisatoi. One of their king, Viridomaros/Britomaros, was not fighting naked. Thus I doubt the Gaisatoi was the real name to designate naked warriors for the Celts.
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    I am not from the team, but in my opinion, the leather was pushed by reenactors for practical reasons. The chariot burial of Gorge-Meillet had four metallic buttons but no trace of leather around them.
    Interesting. I will take note of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Gaisatoi is the name of a tribe or a community of warriors. There is only one occurrence describing them naked. Others occurrences of naked Gallic warriors exist and are not related to the Gaisatoi. One of their king, Viridomaros/Britomaros, was not fighting naked. Thus I doubt the Gaisatoi was the real name to designate naked warriors for the Celts.
    Oh, so it best to consider them a political unit, instead of a type of warrior. Should their recruitment zone be more limited then? Also, should their in game description be changed?
    Last edited by Rad; March 15, 2019 at 02:39 PM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  11. #51
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: Celtic Linothorax

    Their recruitment zone is already limited to the Rhone valley.

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