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Thread: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

  1. #21
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The church that Jesus is building is made up of people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells and whom God will never let go once they know Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour. .... Despite your comments and despite what the seeker is asking God is still bulding His church through the blood of Jesus Christ and those that seek Him in earnest will find Him.
    Why would god rely on word of mouth (that includes scripture of course) for people to find him? It seems to me a very fundamental aspect of Christianity, but to be fair of all religions, that this is the case: it relies 100% on mortals to propagate through time and space. IMHO this requires an explanation, but one rarely hears anyone expound on it. I'm curious what your view is.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    "Why would god?" is grammatically incoherent by the way. It's very much like saying, "why would person eat this food?" Does that sound correct to you?

    Since God is a proper noun, it has to be capitalized, just like Caligula, Gandalf, and so on.

  3. #23
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Why would god rely on word of mouth (that includes scripture of course) for people to find him? It seems to me a very fundamental aspect of Christianity, but to be fair of all religions, that this is the case: it relies 100% on mortals to propagate through time and space. IMHO this requires an explanation, but one rarely hears anyone expound on it. I'm curious what your view is.
    Muizer,

    Well, as Jesus puts it, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." So here's the relationship between Father and Son delivered by the Holy Spirit in drawing an unbeliever to Jesus because an unbeliever cannot do that of his own volition. His heart sees him as a good person so why does he need a Saviour? God put us on this planet essentially so that He could commune with us for His good pleasure and what better way since man's fall than through Jesus Christ, the Son of God making that possible once again.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,

    I think you'll find in the Scriptures that once a person belongs to God the faith that Jesus endowed to them becomes the target for all that's evil meaning that faith is always being tested. One needs more and more faith as one grows in Christ not less. Jesus supplies that through the Holy Spirit and does so in abundance the more one asks for it.
    You are absolutely right that I need to read more the scriptures, haven't been reading them much lately.
    However some cases of mystical experiences almost erase the need for faith or even for being tested for faith, but such cases are relatively rare. In such cases it is almost empirical knowledge of God's existance/nature.

    Giving a hybrid example:
    St. Thomas Aquinas, part of Ecclesiastical class, who spent most of his life dedicated to Bible studies, Faith, Theology, etc, had such a mystical experience on his late life, which completly changed his worldview, and said that what he had wrote was "nothing" compared to what he had witnessed.
    After that he spent his life preparing for his death rather than keeping on writing on Theology despite being a very rare talent for such Theology and lots of demand for him to write more. But he insisted on remaining loyal to what he had experienced, for the confusion of many.

    Aldous Huxley also writes about this episode of St. Thomas Aquinas on "Borders of Perception".

    You could say that after a lifetime of faith and having his faith tested, he had an experience which made faith redundant at the end of his life. Such cases are often well, mysterious and relatively rare even among the most devout believers. But they are cases of empirical individual experience.

    So due to their rare nature it's not a good recipe to recommend. The Faith road is the most effective one.

    But the existance of such mystical experience cases leaves me kinda mesmerized.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 13, 2019 at 07:17 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  5. #25
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    fkizz,

    To give just one example of faith, I as you know have cancer of the bladder and my brother whom I haven't seen for years has terminal cancer of the same organ so I prayed that God would provide the funds for me to get down to Hamilton to see him before he dies or even me. On Sunday someone placed a sealed envelope into my Bible when I was otherwise disposed and it wasn't until we were leaving that it fell out of my Bible yet I didn't open it until we got home, my wife doing that for me. Inside was a bundle of notes amounting to £180 yet not a word of who put it there. After some enquiries I discovered who the donour was and it turned out to be a guy who a few years ago had hit hard times whom I had slipped £80 pounds from my birthday money never expecting it to be paid back. The strange thing is that this guy never heard my plea for finance and so couldn't have known of my need. Was it a coincidence or was it an answer to prayer? To me the answer is so obvious.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,

    To give just one example of faith, I as you know have cancer of the bladder and my brother whom I haven't seen for years has terminal cancer of the same organ so I prayed that God would provide the funds for me to get down to Hamilton to see him before he dies or even me. On Sunday someone placed a sealed envelope into my Bible when I was otherwise disposed and it wasn't until we were leaving that it fell out of my Bible yet I didn't open it until we got home, my wife doing that for me. Inside was a bundle of notes amounting to £180 yet not a word of who put it there. After some enquiries I discovered who the donour was and it turned out to be a guy who a few years ago had hit hard times whom I had slipped £80 pounds from my birthday money never expecting it to be paid back. The strange thing is that this guy never heard my plea for finance and so couldn't have known of my need. Was it a coincidence or was it an answer to prayer? To me the answer is so obvious.
    Basics,

    To me the answer is obvious as well, someone pulled a few strings in your favour using the means avaliable, obviously I do not mean to downplay the power of Faith and the Scripture, for some reason the Scriptures have endured for Millenia, despite the tendency of this planet to erase things in just a few generations.

    Faith and Mysticism have always co-existed, and there are cases of Hybrid experiences (not just St. Thomas Aquinas). One does not imply the invalidation of the other.

    The case of your cures/softening of cancers that normally would've finished someone off, linked with getting attached to the Bible, is too much of a recurrent coincidence to not have something more, but what I'm implying is that asides from benefits of Faith and Works, you may (or not) have the privilege of you having some mystical experience one day, added to what you already went through.

    Well I'm writing this because more or less God is what truly makes sense, and plenty of inconsistencies of "Faith" in truth inconsistencies of Churches being non-perfect (otherwise Protestantism wouldn't ever have been a thing) rather than Faith or the Divine being non-perfect.

    So going beyond and to the next layer, there is the concept of mystical experience, which oddly enough from a rational PoV, fufills even the empirical requirements, albeit in an individualist level.

    Regardless it's not much of a choice to have such type of experience or not, while reading scripture and developing faith is closer to being a choice. (and increasing odds of such experience)
    Last edited by fkizz; March 14, 2019 at 07:52 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #27
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    fkizz,

    Do I detect a wee bit of fence sitting on your part too?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,

    Do I detect a wee bit of fence sitting on your part too?
    Nothing against God and Jesus authority as the Divinity, nor against Faith and Scriptures as a way to develop your character and spirit, but I admit Christian Mysticism as a concept is yet a new discovery for me that genuinly has been confusing my head. Since learning about Padre Pio's miracles I look at this in a different manner.

    If you consider this as fence sitting or not is up to you.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 15, 2019 at 03:16 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  9. #29
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Am I a fence sitter for being Agnostic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    So any Christian who doesn't believe in YEC isn't a true Christian? Really? Get off your high horse, man. Just because not everybody subscribes to your extremely obscure and odd version of Christianity doesn't make them un-believers--seriously, who made you judge and jury on who is a true Christian or not?
    Genghis Skan,

    Well, as Jesus said, " A man must be born again of the Spirit of God to enter heaven." This is authenticated by His endorsement of the Scriptures as being the word of God. Therefore a born again person will not doubt what is written or take anything away from it whatever denomination they find themselves in. What's odd and extremely obscure about what's written in the Bible?

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