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Thread: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.6 (Updated Aug 4th)

  1. #61
    Dead*Man*Wilson's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Sorry my friend. I just can't understand what you are asking as a whole.

    I will say this: AI debuffs and income adjutsments are coming. This is an evolving product and we're getting the desired feedback from here, the Discord channel as well as Steam.

  2. #62
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Yeah, I also can't really get anything from his posts. Sadly

  3. #63

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    I think he want to say that both AI and human player are able to field very large stacks because of the high income and low upkeep. For example, in my Macedonia game, I have the income of 16,000 at the beginning of the game, and each unit cost only around 250 - 300 upkeep, and about 1000 - 2000 recruitment cost. I can field 2 full stacks of elite units without having to work on my economy at all. I think it should be tweaked because economy can be totally ignored.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Thanks for the feedback!

    The thing is, imperium locks how many stacks the player and AI can field. The campaign is meant to be slower and more challenging, so the AI 'stacking up' doesn't really bother me too much. Indeed, many people complain about the AI being too easy to topple in base DeI. This also slows your decision making quite a bit and makes one strategize more. You can't rely on a single pitched battle to decide the fate of a war. Rest assured though, rebalancing will continue with each update. However, the changes to the economy have been painstakingly tested, and will continue to be. Keep in mind that base DeI often gets complaints that the AI is too passive and cannot properly defend itself, so I for one am not opposed to the AI being able to defend itself better. Like I said, AI debuffs will be coming down, though.

    In my current Averaci campaign, I'm about to start a war with the Lusitani. We're both locked into 4 armies max, per our imperium. The Lusitani and myself have not maxed out our stacks, so the AI 'stacking up' to the max does not always happen. I genuinely don't know how this war will go for me since the AI is well matched against me. I have to think quite a bit about risk in this case.

    Lemignh1988, if I'm not mistaken, elite units should cost far more than 1000-2000 to recruit. Indeed, recruiting 3 elite units at a time typically kills my treasury--and I'm always working diplomacy and investing in my economy, so I'm never just sitting on a stack of money in my treasury that can't be wrecked by the construction of a single, expensive lvl 3 building.

    Also, how many turns are you in on the Macedonian campaign you mention? Because if you were relatively far in, I doubt that you could ignore your economy. I'm not saying this is that case for you, but a lot of people load up this mod, see the starting income and assume that they can spend with no worries. I'm running 2 long form campaigns, and this isn't the case at all.

    Also, a lot of this comes down to play styles. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. For example--in base DeI there were plenty of times were my economy could sustain an army of all elite units, but I choose not to do this because it isn't my style and it isn't realistic or fun. Avoiding gamey exploits to the units, economy, and AI is why people develop their own house rules. A mod can perhaps try to limit exploitative behavior, but it can't stop it. It all comes down to the player's choice of action.

    Thanks for the input!
    Last edited by Dead*Man*Wilson; March 18, 2019 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #65
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead*Man*Wilson View Post
    Thanks for the feedback!

    The thing is, imperium locks how many stacks the player and AI can field. The campaign is meant to be slower and more challenging, so the AI 'stacking up' doesn't really bother me too much. Indeed, many people complain about the AI being too easy to topple in base DeI. This also slows your decision making quite a bit and makes one strategize more. You can't rely on a single pitched battle to decide the fate of a war. Rest assured though, rebalancing will continue with each update. However, the changes to the economy have been painstakingly tested, and will continue to be. Keep in mind that base DeI often gets complaints that the AI is too passive and cannot properly defend itself, so I for one am not opposed to the AI being able to defend itself better. Like I said, AI debuffs will be coming down, though.

    In my current Averaci campaign, I'm about to start a war with the Lusitani. We're both locked into 4 armies max, per our imperium. The Lusitani and myself have not maxed out our stacks, so the AI 'stacking up' to the max does not always happen. I genuinely don't know how this war will go for me since the AI is well matched against me. I have to think quite a bit about risk in this case.

    Lemignh1988, if I'm not mistaken, elite units should cost far more than 1000-2000 to recruit. Indeed, recruiting 3 elite units at a time typically kills my treasury--and I'm always working diplomacy and investing in my economy, so I'm never just sitting on a stack of money in my treasury that can't be wrecked by the construction of a single, expensive lvl 3 building.

    Also, how many turns are you in on the Macedonian campaign you mention? Because if you were relatively far in, I doubt that you could ignore your economy. I'm not saying this is that case for you, but a lot of people load up this mod, see the starting income and assume that they can spend with no worries. I'm running 2 long form campaigns, and this isn't the case at all.

    Also, a lot of this comes down to play styles. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. For example--in base DeI there were plenty of times were my economy could sustain an army of all elite units, but I choose not to do this because it isn't my style and it isn't realistic or fun. Avoiding gamey exploits to the units, economy, and AI is why people develop their own house rules. A mod can perhaps try to limit exploitative behavior, but it can't stop it. It all comes down to the player's choice of action.

    Thanks for the input!
    Agreed. Plus I can assure you that the AI's armies are more formidable now and the overall experience more challenging. Of course If you play your cards well and you know what you're doing, eventually with factions as Rome, you'll be swimming in money, but that's understandable. I'm sitting on 300K after around 100 turns, but I have pretty much built a perfect economy and trades routes everywhere.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; March 18, 2019 at 05:16 PM.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Oh yea, for sure. If I currently wasn't building up for a war, I'd have a much larger treasury. I'm also about 70 turns in, so not quite as far as you, GS. Also, I'm the semi-civilized Arevaci, only holding about 2 whole regions/ I'm sure if you play it smart, you can have stupid money as Rome, which sounds like its the case for you


    Updated 3-18-19

    1.59a Patch Notes:

    - Large part of UI changes uploaded (90% Complete)
    - Further balancing to unit, levy, and mercenary costs & upkeep Note all units recently received a standard pricing increase across the board
    - Another round of AI buff decreases present in standard DEI (Some values actually the same or lower than the player now)
    - Changes to government effects and stances
    - Miscellaneous campaign variable edits
    - Zone of Control decreased & and reinforcement range slightly increased
    Last edited by Dead*Man*Wilson; March 18, 2019 at 07:51 PM.

  7. #67
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead*Man*Wilson View Post
    Oh yea, for sure. If I currently wasn't building up for a war, I'd have a much larger treasury. I'm also about 70 turns in, so not quite as far as you, GS. Also, I'm the semi-civilized Arevaci, only holding about 2 whole regions/ I'm sure if you play it smart, you can have stupid money as Rome, which sounds like its the case for you
    Yeah, probably. That is a fact for all the big factions. For Carthage probably a bit more. Since I did a quick play test earlier and the money you're getting on the first 20 turns are endless. Let's see how the new update plays out.

    PS
    Thanks for the notes. I appreciate notes immensely

    EDIT: What are the UI changes btw ?
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; March 18, 2019 at 08:25 PM.

  8. #68
    Dead*Man*Wilson's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Sure thing!

    The UI changes cover most of the clickable mini-menu buttons among many other small additions. They've slowly been rolling out over time.

  9. #69

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Uhmm.. But its not very enjoyable to fight 2v2 stacks battle in Rome 2. The map is too small and lag/stuttering happen a lot. My formation just suddenly break for no reason. I quit after a few battle so I think Im not in position to give feed back, I just want to share my feeling.

  10. #70
    Dead*Man*Wilson's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Got ya.

    I never actually play out battles that involve more than 3 armies. Gets messy.

    The mod doesn't force you to play 2v2 battles, bud. Again, what action the player takes is their choice. Also note that this mod doesn't touch the DEI battle system.
    Last edited by Dead*Man*Wilson; March 18, 2019 at 10:48 PM.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Leminh1988 View Post
    Uhmm.. But its not very enjoyable to fight 2v2 stacks battle in Rome 2. The map is too small...
    For this particular problem I would strongly recommend this mod.

    I've been using it on a permanent basis since its release.

  12. #72

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Hey everyone,
    ive been playing dei for a couple of years and I have to admit:
    first of all of course it is by far the best mod for rtw2
    Aaaannnnnddd this sub mod gives me a challenge for the first time in history of rtw2!
    I appreciate that a lot! Thank you!!!
    finally it is hard and very interesting to play, I can 100% enjoy the game!
    please don’t listen to stupid comments (no offending) and continue the great work!

  13. #73
    Dead*Man*Wilson's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Thanks for the support, Maximus030!

    All reasonable feedback is welcome. Often, however, a legitimate concern about the mod can bleed over into an issue that doesn't concern the mod whatsoever. In any case, we'll have our ears open.

  14. #74

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Ouch. Just downloaded the new patch and in-game my economy tanked. I guess the unit cost increase was pretty steep?

    Great experience with the mod so far. Some buildings cost more than what's listed in-game, however. Not sure if that's a bug or a display issue.

  15. #75
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    Ouch. Just downloaded the new patch and in-game my economy tanked. I guess the unit cost increase was pretty steep?

    Great experience with the mod so far. Some buildings cost more than what's listed in-game, however. Not sure if that's a bug or a display issue.
    Which ones ?

  16. #76

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Piraeus, for Athens, comes to mind. I'll make note of others as I play.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Thanks!

    This type of feedback is very useful!

  18. #78
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    Piraeus, for Athens, comes to mind. I'll make note of others as I play.
    Good to know

    Concerning Baselius' previous comment about economy. Just started a new Very Hard Carthaginian campaign and my economy is still very high (taxes on low), so I don't believe any reduction or increased costs were excessive. Quite the opposite actually.
    I would like to see much-increased research turns though. The current 3-4turn ones are very quick, especially for a 12tpy campaign. I believe they're optimized for 4tpy campagins. Right ?
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; March 19, 2019 at 01:31 PM.

  19. #79

    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    The salient economic considerations regard proportional spending, rather than total income or expenditures. If you double the player's income, but also double costs, nothing changes. With this mod income is higher, but so are costs. I'm not sure if this is a net gain or loss for the player, but my impression is that it's a net loss, making economic decisions more relevant.

    In my game I had a net-positive income, but am now at a net-negative 20k income with the latest update (~60 turns in). I assume this is due to my 6 full-stack armies?

    I don't claim the cost increases are excessive, but simply that the effect is to make it difficult to maintain full army capacity, which crowds-out infrastructure spending, agent use, and political machinations. Do the latter compete with the former in terms of their cost-reward ratio? I don't know.

  20. #80
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD] Official DEI Realism v1.5

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    I don't claim the cost increases are excessive, but simply that the effect is to make it difficult to maintain full army capacity, which crowds-out infrastructure spending, agent use, and political machinations. Do the latter compete with the former in terms of their cost-reward ratio? I don't know.
    Yeah, I got your point
    I will probably need more playtest time to be sure about it though.

    @DMW do we have the latest patch notes ? I saw thal all Realism submods were updated.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; March 20, 2019 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

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