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Thread: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Depends on the country, I guess. So far, the systems have apparently not adapted very well to the question, as the cases cited by the OP show. I think there's a lot of legistlating still to be done.
    .
    In America if a doctor signs a document on penalty of perjury saying the person is going through the medical procedures for changing gender the department of state wil issue a temporary passport. When the procedure is done the doctor can again sign another document on penalty of perjury saying so. The department of state will issue a passport under the new gender. If you have no idea how powerful a passport is understand this. You can use this new passport to get every state level id re-issued. The states now can’t argue with you about your gender. The federal government says you’re now who you are. Period.

    State school system policy? Pshhh. The federal government says you’re who you are.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    The issue then becomes, can a sports organization discriminate against transgender people? I would hope the answer is yes, within limits. Sports integrity is pretty vital for any sports league. Another question would be, do MtF individuals have a physical advantage against women? Scientific evidence would be nice if someone has any.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    The issue then becomes, can a sports organization discriminate against transgender people? I would hope the answer is yes, within limits. Sports integrity is pretty vital for any sports league. Another question would be, do MtF individuals have a physical advantage against women? Scientific evidence would be nice if someone has any.
    Well, going by just the wiki page the topic is very complex. But one thing is simple. The passport issuance only happens upon physical sex change operations no matter where on the line of transgender the person falls.

    Consider that for the idea of the sports.
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  4. #24
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post

    Case five:Male to female transgender cage fighter breaks opponent's skull:https://www.bjjee.com/articles/trans...-with-reality/
    REALITY... Man beats up woman; someone who is a biological male is a male.
    Last edited by Stario; February 28, 2019 at 06:29 AM.

  5. #25
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    It's a tricky issue but I really don't think a man who has transitioned into a woman should be allowed to compete in female sports if he/she retains significant male 'attributes' that may be beneficial to her/his athletic performance. To deny the truth of biological differences for the sake of inclusion is to deny reality. It's unfortunate for those who do wish to compete as transexuals but it's simply unfair to the rest of the competitors. Until science somehow manages to sufficiently 'downgrade' MtF athletes it doesn't make sense to allow them to compete with women.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    It's a tricky issue but I really don't think a man who has transitioned into a woman should be allowed to compete in female sports if he/she retains significant male 'attributes' that may be beneficial to her/his athletic performance. To deny the truth of biological differences for the sake of inclusion is to deny reality. It's unfortunate for those who do wish to compete as transexuals but it's simply unfair to the rest of the competitors. Until science somehow manages to sufficiently 'downgrade' MtF athletes it doesn't make sense to allow them to compete with women.
    The issue you’re dealing with is the people that transition in a lot of countries can get significant legal documentation saying that they are the gender they are. It’s not about inclusion. They are officially who they are. A sports corporation policy can’t compete with this. And on a purely psychological level, a male isn’t going to do this just to win.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  7. #27
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Actually, let transexual males beat up on the females in MMA; hopefully we can see more fractured skulls (i kind of enjoyed the fight, her head looked like it almost go decapitated when it collided with his knee; brutal hit! & she was out cold), soon they will realise we're not equal.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; March 03, 2019 at 04:35 AM. Reason: Slang removed.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    I love it. Men now outcompeting women even in areas exclusive to women. What can I say hoes, start putting in the hours and maybe the Patriarchy will pay you more than $0.7/hr.

    is male privileg keeping u down fam?
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  9. #29

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Here's an idea: if this is a potential issue, do some reputable studies to see if it's a wide issue and not a small thing being blown out of proportion. If it is widespread, address the specific topic of transwomen competing in sports without denying them their womanhood or personhood and screeching about "scientific facts" when you're a scientific illiterate on a forum.

    Here's a better idea: make sports leagues based purely on physical divisions like height, weight, performance record, and qualifying in lesser competitions, so a transwoman who can compete with the top tier of male athletes, or a ciswoman like Semenya who can possibly do the same, can do that.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique View Post
    Here's an idea: if this is a potential issue, do some reputable studies to see if it's a wide issue and not a small thing being blown out of proportion. If it is widespread, address the specific topic of transwomen competing in sports without denying them their womanhood or personhood and screeching about "scientific facts" when you're a scientific illiterate on a forum.

    Here's a better idea: make sports leagues based purely on physical divisions like height, weight, performance record, and qualifying in lesser competitions, so a transwoman who can compete with the top tier of male athletes, or a ciswoman like Semenya who can possibly do the same, can do that.
    I agree the solution seems to guidelines and flexibility. If you were a male weightlifter who transitioned even with all the hormones and what not you still likely retain a physique that is effectively a cheat. If even with a full transition therapy you still retain the ability to significantly out mass women well than compete with the boys. But I fear any story based on the sources provided Social media fodder. I'd like some actual studies.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    If we believe in equality of the sexes, perhaps we should abolish the separate male.and female competitions, and just have to he competition for the best athelete, period. The separate categories are just a hold over from earlier, more sexist days.

    For example, in many sports African Americans dominate, it may be a biological thing. Should we have separate categories to African American and non African American atheletes simply because one group might have some innate biological superiority? Such biological superiority would only apply to.thr group and not he individual. There are some very good white basketball players after all, and some of the best women athletes will be better than all but the best men. In horseback riding competitons, the here is no separate woman&s categoy, is there? And in a shooting competition, why would being male.give any real advantage? Abolish the separate men and women categories, and this issue goes away.

  12. #32
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique View Post
    Here's an idea: if this is a potential issue, do some reputable studies to see if it's a wide issue and not a small thing being blown out of proportion. If it is widespread, address the specific topic of transwomen competing in sports without denying them their womanhood or personhood and screeching about "scientific facts" when you're a scientific illiterate on a forum.
    Yeah... Their own bodies deny them that. If you need a constant stream of medications and surgical modifications losing your reproductive organs, it's kinda ridiculous to pretend you've been the other gender all along.
    Quote Originally Posted by L'Afrique View Post
    Here's a better idea: make sports leagues based purely on physical divisions like height, weight, performance record, and qualifying in lesser competitions, so a transwoman who can compete with the top tier of male athletes, or a ciswoman like Semenya who can possibly do the same, can do that.
    Since you're apparently a scientific literate, you'll probably know about the increased effects androgens such as testosterone have on body density and muscle mass, never even mind the better reflexes and coordination men have. Studies purport that trained female athletes tend to have the strength of untrained men.

    I don't care what- or whoever you identify yourself as. Once you're through puberty it's a done deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    If we believe in equality of the sexes, perhaps we should abolish the separate male.and female competitions, and just have to he competition for the best athelete, period. The separate categories are just a hold over from earlier, more sexist days.
    In earlier, more sexist days, women were banned from sports. Which your unisex-proposal effectively does as well.

    How about a third, gender-inclusive competition, where Apache Attack Helicopters, Agender, Androgyne, Androgynous, Bigender, Cis, Cisgender, Cis Female, Cis Male, Cis Man, Cis Woman, Cisgender Female, Cisgender Male, Cisgender Man, Cisgender Woman, Female to Male, FTM, Gender Fluid, Gender Nonconforming, Gender Questioning, Gender Variant, Genderqueer, Intersex, Male to Female, MTF, Neither, Neutrois, Non-binary, Other, Pangender, Trans, Trans*, Trans Female, Trans* Female, Trans Male, Trans* Male, Trans Man, Trans* Man, Trans Person, Trans* Person, Trans Woman, Trans* Woman, Transfeminine, Transgender, Transgender Female, Transgender Male, Transgender Man, Transgender Person, Transgender Woman, Transmasculine, Transsexual, Transsexual Female, Transsexual Male, Transsexual Man, Transsexual Person, Transsexual Woman, Two-Spirit & Co. can compete without fear of discrimination and without being denied their "personhood"?

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  13. #33

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    I still want to be convinced that a male will go through this entire process, get all the legal documentation saying that he is a woman that no sports league can legally do anything about, and live the rest of his life as a woman....just to win a sport.

    This is some severe psychological, heady stuff you guys are implying here.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #34
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    It’s not about why they do it, it’s about whether biological men competing against biological women is fair, regardless of the reasons for someone’s transition.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It’s not about why they do it, it’s about whether biological men competing against biological women is fair, regardless of the reasons for someone’s transition.
    I've said at least twice in this thread. It really does not matter. Once they have government backed documentation saying they are, by government identification, a woman(or man), the private corporation sports league really can't stop them. A private corporation can not in any way legally compete with a government document. You can come up with as many ideas as you want. Once the government legally says a person has changed genders and issues them an identification as such, their world changes and they have access to an entire swatch of rights that that gender has access to. They also lose access to everything the other gender had access to. And no private corporation can deny this. The most fundamental god damn example, and you can not deny this, is what god damn restroom you go into. A private corporation can write a thousand page policy book about how they will handle transgender endgame. But it doesn't matter. Once a government issued identification says 'Male' or 'Female', guess what the frak they are.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    I've said at least twice in this thread. It really does not matter.
    Apparently it does matter.

    Once they have government backed documentation saying they are, by government identification, a woman(or man), the private corporation sports league really can't stop them.
    They can and they did in some cases, and the government couldn't do a thing. Its not about the gender they have in documentation after all. They are still Transgender women at the end of the day.

    For the note, i think it was the USA power-lifting organization that banned transgender women from competing.


    Btw im all for trans rights and what not, but there are some instances were i do see issues today, this being one of them.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    There are no transgender ids in the US. You are either male or female.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    I thought gender ≠ sex?
    And given that several sports have further limitations on athletes, how come they shouldn't have the right to make biological sex a criteria?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  19. #39

    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I thought gender ≠ sex?
    And given that several sports have further limitations on athletes, how come they shouldn't have the right to make biological sex a criteria?
    It generally isn't. Transgender as a concept is very complicated. And governments that deal with it won't go as deep into it as the ethics go. The deepest they go into it is if you go fully into the physical sex change operation, fully through it, they will issue you new identification, and there's not much private organizations that run sports leagues can do to argue with this. At this point it's not about transgender. The question is what the ever living frak makes anybody think the private organization can argue with a government document saying that person is what they are?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Male-to-female transgenders are ruining sports for women.

    So you're telling me that sports organisations, which are already reserving the right to exclude athletes from competitions for a variety of reasons, are monitoring the athletes body chemistry including hormone levels closely, and already do prohibit them from partaking if they take certain medicine, including hormones, or have hormone levels above certain thresholds, can't make additional rules or even simply add to the existing list that would effectively bar transpersons from participating?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

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