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Thread: The Hellenic League

  1. #1

    Default The Hellenic League

    Dear forum,

    I adore the Greek city states, but have grown bored with playing them individually. Lately I've been using a mod to force a 'Hellenic League' on turn one, and have edited the game-files to combine their rosters. The core of the League is EB's Koinon Hellenon (Athens, Sparta, and Rhodes) though I sometimes include Crete. I usually have Athens as the lead power, but Sparta and Rhodes are viable alternatives.

    This has been a lot of fun. The League is now a strong starting power with a versatile roster. It still has weaknesses--small population, hoplite tactics, surrounded by major powers--but it feels much more satisfying to play.

    I wanted to ask: when making the perfect Greek army, which units from each faction should I take? (Assuming you don't want to role play by combining a little of everything). Here's what I'm seeing:

    • Hoplites: Athens has the best pop 2 hoplites with 10 additional armor. Pop 1 is interesting: you either have the "picked" hoplites of Athens and Crete with a staggering 80 armor, or the Spartan Hoplites with good endurance.
    • Pike: All meh; Athens is least bad.
    • Swords: Sparta overall, but Athens has some good pop 3 units.
    • Melee and Tarantine Cavalry: Athens
    • Shock Cavalry: Rhodian lancers are the best at pop 2. Athenian Lancers are pop 3 and are a good alternative.
    • Skirmishers: Don't think any faction has a superior peltast.
    • Archers: Crete
    • Slingers: Rhodes
    • Navy: Athenian marines are the best, but Rhodes has access to the biggest ship. Debatable.

    Am I missing anything? A Hellenic Army may look like this:

    • 4 Pikes
    • 4 Hoplites
    • 2 Skirmish Cav
    • 2 Lancers
    • 1 Melee Cav
    • 2 Peltasts / Javs
    • 2 Archers / Slingers
    • 2 Swords
    • 1 Spears

    Also, what would be the grand strategy of the League? What I'm thinking:

    1. Control Hellas and Macadonia
    2. Control Thrace
    3. (Naval) Control of Corfu, Rhodes, and Crete
    4. Control Mare Aegaeum (meaning control of Nicomedia and the Bosphorus)
    5. Control Cyprus and Sicaly
    6. Control Magna Graecia, Aegyptus, Italia, Africa
    7. Control 140 settlements total

    Numbers 1-4 are the early game and shouldn't be too difficult. 5 is rough. You directly challenge Charthage, Rome, and the Seleucids. It may be wiser to go around the map achieving 7 before engaging the major powers, but the longer the game goes, the more the major powers expand themselves. Knocking them out early may be preferable.

    One strategy I enjoy is using the offical 'All Occupation Options' mod to conquer settlements and "liberate" them (read: install friendly governments). This is a 'divide & conquer' strategy well befitting the Greeks. By creating many small allied factions, it forces us to balance all the moving players while opposing the major powers.

    All insight and input is appreciated.
    Last edited by Basilius; March 01, 2019 at 05:56 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    How I ended doing it in my last hellenic campaign ( Rhodes ) was;

    I subjugated and created army in model and troops from each city's model ( I think it came as 2 armies per Sparta, Athens, Rhodes, Pergamon. Then 1 from Thessalia, Ephesos, Knossos and Lydia and 1 pure merc army. I think I was planning 1 from Cyrene too ). After the initial few city conquests in asia minor I thought Rhodes would certainly lack population to create that many phalanxes itself and went after that model. I think I managed even to get fleet from Knossos and Athens too.. rest Rhodian.

  3. #3

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Hi Basilius,

    How did you edit the game files so that you could combine all their rosters? Could you share the edited files?
    Would love to try it out!

    Thanks!

    Oooh pictures! Faber est quisque fortunae suae

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    @Garbad:

    I posted in that thread when you made it. =) It's a great campaign idea, but different than what I'm doing above.

    That said, I would love to hear your thoughts on army compositions and which units from each roster to use.

    @ Miltiades:

    It's easy. Download a packfile manager and open part 1 of the DEI mod. Navigate to "units_to_groupings_military_permissions_tables" and go to a faction's roster. There you can change which faction a unit belongs to (be careful not to duplicate units!). Then simply save and start a newgame.

    You can maybe do this mid-game (it works) but I'm not sure if it breaks the reform system.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    > which units from each roster to use.

    Can you upload your hellenic league start file so I can see it? I am curious to see combined rosters.

    I am more looking at flavor than raw opness, but I would be interested in:

    Missile:
    - rhodian slingers
    - cretean archers
    - agrarian axemen
    - pergamon elite peltasts
    - gastraphetes

    Horse:
    - Thessalonian Lancers
    - Lochnophori
    - Companions
    - Athenian Tarentines
    - Bosphoran Horse archers

    Infantry:
    - spartan peers
    - Macedonian elite pikes (both flavors)
    - 2-3 different varieties of hoplites from lesser states (im doing my part!~)
    - elite light hoplites from pergamon or one of the eastern versions
    - elite athenian marines
    - massalian longswords
    - naked gauls from egypt? kind of a stretch

    Another cool idea would be to make all or almost all greek units except for elites available to the enemy as "mercenary" or exiled greeks. Like Exiled Greek Hoplites, Mercenary Greek Slingers, etc.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Your list is more expansive than my Koinon Hellenon above, but it looks like a lot of fun.

    I'm not sure if giving you my save file would work. I think each person would need to edit their own mod files directly.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbad View Post
    >

    Another cool idea would be to make all or almost all greek units except for elites available to the enemy as "mercenary" or exiled greeks. Like Exiled Greek Hoplites, Mercenary Greek Slingers, etc.
    What I'd like to have is mechanism for all client states Say it's so damn annoying trying to get AI to build horse pens when you want levy their cav. Last few I've torn down just insist insta building some temple instead keeping the pens I just built for 'em Maybe similiar to that mercenary barracks mechanism like Carthage has? ( can't remember how it worked tho, only tried it briefly before my break ). But one that would allow you recruit units that original owners could from any barracks type ( personally I usually don't levy them if unit has say royal, king or some other elite status in their name -maybe lock out by population type or just hand-limit per unit ).

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Because the three combined rosters were a mess and provided too many options, I've culled it down to a Hellenic Core with contributions from each faction.

    Greek Core

    Rhodes and Athens provides the basic units:
    • Pop 3 Hoplites / Swords
    • Pop 3 Psiloi
    • Pop 3 Thureophoroi (no elites)
    • Pop 3 Pikes
    • Pop 2 Peltasts
    • Pop 2 Thorakitai

    Specialized Units

    Athens
    • Pop 2 Hoplites (Light & Heavy)
    • Navy
    • Pop 1 & 2 Melee and Ranged Cavalry

    Sparta
    • Pop 1 Hoplites

    Rhodes
    • Pop 2 Shock Cavalry
    • Pop 2 Slingers

    Crete
    • Pop 2 Archers

    The only thing I'm missing from this new roster are shock infantry. (I may bring in a Skiritai unit from Sparta with good charge.) I was also disappointed to find that Greece has no Ekdromoi once Thureos reforms hit. Spartan Youths are the exception, but at pop 1.
    Last edited by Basilius; March 01, 2019 at 04:58 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Is there any way you can share this? Would love to see it as a sub-mod, even.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Here is a Google Link to my edited Part 1 of the DEI mod. See if downloading this works.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Sorry, kinda confused. What is the mod you use that unifies the factions? I assume it's separate? Couldn't find it after looking through the workshop.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    I use Cyanide's Easy Diplomacy to force the factions into a league on turn 1. There are similar mods on the rome 2 workshop.

    I then edit the DEI file, uploaded in my last post, to merge their rosters.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Basilius this looks absolutely fascinating, something I could really get behind (and also will make good use of my Greek city names mod).

    The only thing I'm missing from this new roster are shock infantry. (I may bring in a Skiritai unit from Sparta with good charge.) I was also disappointed to find that Greece has no Ekdromoi once Thureos reforms hit. Spartan Youths are the exception, but at pop 1.
    What about using the Thesprotian Infantry from the Epirus roster? Technically still Greeks!

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    I'm writing a strategy guide for a 'Hellenic League' play-through. I'm 25 pages in, and hope to have it finished by April.

    I'll check out Thesprotian Infantry, thank you.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Question for you - I've downloaded your modded pack 1 as well as the Cyanide Easy Diplo mod, but I am unable to convince anyone to confederate (even with my entire treasury).

    I'm using the new crap mod manager, and the Easy Diplo mod is placed up top. Any ideas?

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    I would recommend using the old mod manager until the new one has the bugs ironed out.

    Easy Diplo sometimes has mod conflicts. Try turning off all other mods but Easy Diplo, forcing the confederation & saving, then turning on all the other mods. Cyanide's mod makes it so any amount of money offered forces the AI to agree to a deal.

    Also, I've updated that Pack 1 (Added Pergamon peltasts; replaced Athenian Hoplites with default Hoplites). I'll upload it tonight. Feedback is always welcome.

    Edit:

    One thing I would like people's opinion on is if I should include tier 1 pikes, lancers, and swords from Epirus/Makedon/Pergamon (similar to what Garbad outlined above).

    They're filthy successor states or (in the case of Perg's swords) latinized. This seems heretical. But on the other hand, they're awesome, and part of our sphere of influence.

    I'm torn.
    Last edited by Basilius; March 21, 2019 at 06:10 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Cool, it could be DeI Realism so I'll disable that and see if that changes things.

    I think I might keep the Athenian hoplites in my version - I just love the blue cloaks!

    Also, for RP, there are two faction emblems that I can recommend for this type of playthrough since the Athens Owl is quite particular to Athens:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=923870497

    This is a depiction of a helmed Athena, which I think a united Greek City States faction could get behind.

    Alternatively, for Rhodes there's this:

    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1118425725

    I personally love this one - it's a torch symbolising freedom and independence.

    UPDATE - it was DeI Realism. Disabled that and then it worked. All confederated and ready to go!
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; April 25, 2019 at 05:40 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    Ha! I was going to suggest Realism was the problem, but wasn't sure you had it.

    Also, not sure if you saw my edit, but I would love your feedback. And thank you for the emblem!

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Hellenic League

    One thing I would like people's opinion on is if I should include tier 1 pikes, lancers, and swords from Epirus/Makedon/Pergamon (similar to what Garbad outlined above).

    They're filthy successor states or (in the case of Perg's swords) latinized. This seems heretical. But on the other hand, they're awesome, and part of our sphere of influence.

    I'm torn.
    While the game categorises Epirus as a "Successor state", I personally wouldn't. Epirus was a monarchical tribal confederation long before Macedon rose to prominence, and were an integral part of the Greek world (especially with the oracle at Dodona). I don't see an issue integrating some of their roster, but personally would avoid the chalkaspides and successor cavalry units as that might be "cheesing" it. If you were going to add something, maybe add the elite agema chaonon pikes or something.

    I've actually edited your pack file to include what I assume are the Thesprotian Infantry (GRE_Epirus_Infantry) so if that works I'll let you know! Just waiting for research to finish and barracks to upgrade.

    EDIT - you could include lancers such as Sarissaphoroi, if Massalia has them then why not the League?

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