The Hellenic League

[Epanastatis]

Faction Traits
I've changed the League's faction traits to the following:

• Philhellenes: Diplomatic Bonus with Hellenic factions (+35)
  
  • The League wipes out Epirus and Makeon early on, who both have Greek diplo penalties. The League is seen as a savior to Greek city-states and colonies, and a potential ally to the other successor states.
  
  
  
• Guardians of Delphi: Public order bonus from Hellenic Culture (+4)
  
  • Per Epanastatis idea, which is good.
  
  
  
• Military Decline: Increased Non-Mercy Recruitment Costs (+10%)
  
  • Rhodes, Athens, and Pergamon all have this, and Sparta should too tbh. It's historically accurate and a reasonable handicap.

Love it! I think it fits the spirit of what you're trying to achieve perfectly.

Units

• Epeirote Thesprotian Infantry are awesome, flavorful, and balanced. My only gripe is that they're from...*shudders* Epirus
• I've changed the Merc Pikes' name to "Hellenic Pikes"
• I'm still uneasy about having Epirus' Elite Pikes on the roster. I think they should be removed, barring balance considerations

Glad to see points 1 and 2 here

As for the Elite Pikes, I tend to agree that the roster would be fine without them.

Flavor
I'd like to continue modding the text files to replace "Athens" with the "Hellenic League" and the faction description. Also, this is a great emblem, but it has to be modded to be compatible with DEI, and changes the UI a bit.

I don't really "get" the emblem... what does the Omega represent? AFAIK in Greek history the Omega was used to represent the year of death, up until Christianity took root and then it was used as part of the alpha-omega digramma to represent God as the start and end of all things.

To me, the helmed Athena emblem or even the Zeus Thunderbolts emblem of Syracuse are a better fit - after all the Gods are something all Greeks can get behind.

Balance
The biggest issue is that the League has no good pop 2 Thorax units. This forces it into pop 1 units late game. Is this a weakness we should address or accept? If address, what units could we add? If accept, how should the League play late game?

I'm not sure if they're still around, but I remember late game Massalia used to have Thorax Hoplites - that would suit nicely. Alternatively they also had these Romanised sword units or another keltohellenic sword unit that could both fit as the "core" army unit late game.

[Basilius]

AFAIK in Greek history the Omega was used to represent the year of death, up until Christianity took root and then it was used as part of the alpha-omega digramma to represent God as the start and end of all things.

Today I learned! I just thought the omega looked cool. =P

I'm not sure if they're still around, but I remember late game Massalia used to have Thorax Hoplites - that would suit nicely. Alternatively they also had these Romanised sword units or another keltohellenic sword unit that could both fit as the "core" army unit late game.

Alas, Sparta seems to have the only Thorax Hoplites in game. Thanks for the Massalia recommendation, but it's too far afield. I was comparing Thorax Spears to Swords and the former aren't as bad as I thought. The League will just have to make do.

Perhaps add in some random city hoplites like corinthian hoplites, etc?

So I was looking into adding these and noticed that the League already gets access to a lot of AOR hoplites! I normally don't give these a second thought, as they're often worse than base hoplites. But I'm going to try and make them on par. That way, the player can bring in Athenians/Cretans/Corinthian/etc. hopelites for a willing coalition.

[Garbad]

Nicely done. Are you planning on having objectives/house rules to play by as well?

[Basilius]

I do, and would like to hear people's suggestions.

(When I write my guide I'm also going to link people to your Hellenic League Garbad, as an alternate play-through.)

Okay, hoplite balance:

• Added Rhodian, Cretan, and Perioikoi hoplites to the roster. (= stats)
  
  • They're the bread & butter
  
  
• Removed "Greek Hoplites" and "Athenian Hoplites" from the roster
• Buffed the AOR "Athenian Hoplites" to have +10 armor and -5 morale from default hoplites. Player can only field 9 of them at any one time
  
  • Idea is that, as "leader" of the league, Athenians aren't as excited to be on the front lines as other City-States, and will only contribute so many men in this role.
  
  
• AOR Spartan Hoplites are simply worse than their recruitable counterpart. I don't know how to tweak these.
• Sadly, Corinthian Hoplites are no longer in the game files. Corinith does have AOR Korinthian Thureos Spears, which have less morale and 1 additional speed then default Thureos Spears, while being 200 manpower and pop 2. I've buffed their armor and morale.
  
  • These units are now a natural evolution to Ekdromoi, and an alternative to Peltasts as a Skirmisher. Capped at 11 per player at any one time.
  
  

How does this look, and what should I do about the AOR Spartan Hoplites?

[Garbad]

Nice improvements. Spartan Heros are fine for hoplites, no need for AOR ones imo. Unless you want to edit their name to Plataean Hoplites or something for flavor. I would suggest a cap on regular hoplites just to encourage the use of the AOR ones for flavor.

I note you aren't using any thracians or even macedonians. Is this pure greek specifically pre alexander era style? Because if so, I might drop pikes completely and buff up hoplites a bit more, as well as making marine type units more elite to stand toe to toe with legionary types endgame. Classical greek era horse/missile is already more than good enough.

[Basilius]

Is this pure greek specifically pre alexander era style?

Precisely.

I might drop pikes completely

Didn't the city-states eventually use pikes? I think pop 3 pikes with no thorax evolution is fine; right now the army compositions seem to be:

Pre-reform: Classical Hoplites
Thureos Reform: Pikes
Thorax Reform: Thorax Hoplites & Thorax Spears

buff up hoplites a bit more, as well as making marine type units more elite to stand toe to toe with legionary types endgame

Thorax Spartan Hoplites aren't bad; how would you buff hoplites? One idea is to make all pop 2 hoplites on par with Athenians (+10 armor.) Is that wise?

Buffing the Athenian Marines is interesting. Right now they're -10 armor and -3 stamina from normal Thorax swords, with a unit size of 140 instead of 200.

I may simply need to play a campaign with this setup to see how the League fairs. (The best general traits seem to be Quartermaster and +melee attack.)

[Garbad]

Well, I've felt athenian marines have always been underpowered. They should be on par with any elite sword unit in the game, imo. I'd like to see them fill the role of elite endgame units, possibly on the flank.

I guess my concern is that although hoplites and basic pikes are fantastic early game, what happens endgame against the legions and other elite heavy infantry spam? This roster rocks early game, but end game it doesn't have an infantry to build on. But I guess you could argue that's realistic, and ok.

[Basilius]

This roster rocks early game, but end game it doesn't have an infantry to build on. But I guess you could argue that's realistic, and ok.

Point is well taken. Haven't decided on a solution yet.

[LewisVee]

This is a fantastic. I am looking very forward to the progress off this.

do you have plans to make this an official sub mod? I usually play as Athens and uniting the Hellenic city’s doesn’t feel unique, this makes it possible for an authentic united Hellenic league. Thankyou for the updates.

[Basilius]

Thanks. I'm writing a strategy guide for the League that outlines a flavorful campaign.

do you have plans to make this an official sub mod?

I've never really made a mod before; even here I'm only editing gamefiles. If this gets much bigger I may have to learn how to mod!

I usually play as Athens

How do you play Athens post Thorax reforms?

03/30/19 Update

• Added Thorax Hoplites
  
  • Found them! Now the HL has a Thorax pop 2 unit aside from Thorax Spears.
  • Their balance is in question. They have the phalanx ability, in exchange for -1 M.Def, -10 Armor, -10 morale, and -1 Stamina. Should one of these be buffed?
  • They also have the same picture as Thorax Spears...any way to change this?
  
  
• Added Hexeres
  
  • While these were used as flagships, Rhodes has them, so it seems fine to add to our roster. Plus, naval units may be the one area where the HL has late game technological superiority.
  
  

I think the roster is just about finished. Other than tweaking Hellas AOR units, I feel like we have good stuff to work with.

[Garbad]

I think the stamina and morale are too steep. The whole emphasis of classical greek thinking was stamina/courage/morale over skill or even equipment. Another idea might be taking the spartan thorax hoplites and copying their stats and calling them professional or mercenary thorax hoplites or something similar to show the evolution away from citizen hoplites into professional troops. Your call, it already seems great. I can't wait to try it.

[Basilius]

Thorax Hoplites & Spears Balance

So I'm considering giving Thorax Hoplites +10 armor and +10 morale. This gives them a similar ratio to Spartan Thorax Hoplites, as normal Hoplites have to Spartan Hoplites. Also, the -1 M. Defense and -1 stamina reflect units trained to fight in a rigid formation, rather than mobility.

However, now a problem is that the Thorax Hoplite and Thorax Spears are near identical. Why would you use Spears when Thorax Hoplites have the same stats, but with the phalanx ability? (Does having a javelin really justify it?) I think CA/KAM noticed this too because Thorax Spears and Hoplites have the same unit model and unit card.

Looking at our inspiration, Europa Barbarorum, isn't much help either. There, Thorax Spears have 3 javelins (to our 1) while the Thorax Hoplite's secondary weapon is a high AP sword. Can't really replicate those here.

Another inspiration is history. It seems that Thorax Hoplites were only an elite group of Thorax Spear, specially trained to fight in formation. If we adhere to that, then it's appropriate to have the pop 1 Thorax Spartan Hoplites as the only thorax hoplites, and we should remove our pop 2 brand. But then we have the original problem of not having a thorax mainline unit! Thorax Spears are specifically heavy skirmishers.

What's the solution? Should we keep both, and let the player decide whether to use Thorax Spearmen as a phalanx frontline or skirmisher? Or should the phalanx unit be removed as being too preferential?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Garbad]

> However, now a problem is that the Thorax Hoplite and Thorax Spears are near identical. Why would you use Spears when Thorax Hoplites have the same stats, but with the phalanx ability?

Hoplites pack in formation much tighter than usual spears, concentrating attack and defense. Much better for fighting in a line. Perhaps give the spears +1 speed to compensate?

[Basilius]

Perhaps give the spears +1 speed to compensate?

This is the right idea, but seems too ahistorical. It would negate the entire point of Thureophoroi and heavier peltasts.

I checked Pergamon's roster, and their Thorax Hoplites and Thorax Spears are exactly as I've outlined above: T.Spears have +1 ammo, +2 Melee Def, and +1 stamina on their T.Hoplites. I tweaked this to 1/1/1 and added them to the HL's roster. (This also nicely provides a different unit card and model.)

Next up, Hellas' AOR units.

[Epanastatis]

I think the Massalian Keltohellenikoi Thorakitai or the Romaiko Summakhiko Peziko units are the answer here, and let me explain why.

Neither one is *uniquely* Massalian in the sense that they could not conceivably have developed in any other Hellenic faction with exposure to either Rome or Celts (the Hellenic League would have had, especially by the time Thorax reforms are unlocked).

There are Celts both north of Greece as well as East in the Anatolian highland, so that can "justify" the Keltohellenikoi Thorakitai.

If the player hasn't already conquered Italy by the time of the Thorax reforms, I am sure we can assume pretty lengthy and comprehensive cultural exchanges between the Romans and the Hellenic League by that point, so that can "justify" the Romaiko Summakhiko Peziko.

Alternatively you could try making these AOR units available to the player only if they have conquered Celtic or Latin regions.

[Garbad]

I agree on keltaoki, disagree on romans.

I'd like to see:

- trash levy eastern infantry just for fodder
- agranian axemen
- thracian pelts/light infantry
- maybe elite thracian romphanorane?
- keltic longswords, see above
- persian archers

And basically no other infantry. All other mercs should be light cav, eastern cav, etc. I say this because the greeks didn't use much foreign infantry except as fodder, but horse was always welcome.

[LewisVee]

Post thorax reforms, to be totally honest I try to copy the roman legions, heavy infantry with spears on rears and support.

cretan archers are crucial and have actually won me many battles.

Heavy cavalry on either rear.

[geala]

This is a nice project. I might copy it. It makes a lot more sense to imagine a successful Hellenic League as faction than making such small powers like Athens, Sparta or Rhodes imperial players on their own. However I have some small nickpits, in no special order:

1. Is there a possibility for the alliance to break apart or at least face rough times? The late Sparta was always a kind of pariah, standing away from the other Greek powers while facing a lot of inner struggle. I could imagine the HL would have had some problems with them even in case of a win in the Chremonidean War (the league would have broken imo).

2. I'm not so much satisfied with the population classes in some cases. Any hoplite, pikemen or armored late warrior (thorakitai) should be pop 1 or 2. From where comes the idea that pikemen were low class guys or that pike combat was easily learned? Pikemen, from the sources, usually had one or two servants/slaves with them and they were surely from the better parts of society.

3. Unfortunately DeI features, for gameplay diversity, armored thoureophoroi and armored peltasts with thoureoi which are historically debatable (a thoureos bearer with armor is a thorakitai; armored heavy peltasts are not very probable, never saw a source for it). I would use the chance and throw them out, or better said make two unarmored thoureophoroi units, one with spear and one with javelins.

4. I don't understand why the HL should be pre-Alexander oriented. The bigger Greek players changed to pike warfare at some point prior the 220s BC. I doubt they (or the successors) really copied the Romans later on, but we have the reforms, and so there should be Roman-like thorakitai in abundance but there should be no thorakitai hoplite or similar.

5. Your army composition in the first post has a bit too many cavalry for my taste.If you look at the numbers given in the ancient sources for Hellenes or Romans, cavalry is usually below 10% of the whole army. Which would result in a mounted general plus two to three cavalry units at most.

[Basilius]

I think the Massalian Keltohellenikoi Thorakitai or the Romaiko Summakhiko Peziko units are the answer here

I'll consider it, but I'm really digging that the HL doesn't have late game swords and has to rely on AOR.

1. Is there a possibility for the alliance to break apart or at least face rough times?

No, but I've made the political parties "Athenians, Spartans, Cretans, & Rhodians." So Sparta may break away with the Civil War mechanic.

2. I'm not so much satisfied with the population classes in some cases.

Part of this is for gameplay reasons; without pop 3 hoplite or pike Greek factions simply couldn't function. The lore rational is that Hellenic pikes are mercenaries from Macedon and not citizens proper. If they were pop 2 they would also have a thorax evolution; ours do not.

I would use the chance and throw them out, or better said make two unarmored thoureophoroi units, one with spear and one with javelins.

I'm inclined to agree. I think Kam made Peltasts have too high armor and thoureophoroi too low speed. But I'm not willing to mess with his balance too much.

4. I don't understand why the HL should be pre-Alexander oriented.

Just flavor. Plenty of Greek factions have Swords and Pikes. I want to try a faction that sticks with spears.

5. Your army composition in the first post has a bit too many cavalry for my taste

Alexander had 15% Cav at Gaugamela, and the Romans had 17% Cav at Zama, according to Wikipedia.

Update

Current Roster:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Swords
Added Machairophoroi (Thureos Swords) to the roster.

Light Infantry
Added Euzonoi (Levy Spears). Gave them +1 ammo (and 20 armor).

Pikes
Nerfed Hellenic Pikes to be a tier below Chalkaspides.

Cavalry
Removed Thureos Prodomoi.

Added Sarissa Lancers.

Removed Elite Tarantine. I can see the nobility serving as Hoplites or Melee Cav, but not Skirm Cav.

Archers
Debating removing Cretan Archers from the roster, so the player has to use AOR only. This forces the player into using Rhodian Slingers more.

AOR
Macedonian Pike: Buffed to be equal to Chalkaspides, outside of -10 morale. Epanastatis was worried that giving the HL access to Chalkaspides would be too OP, but being a Macedonian AOR unit adds a lot of limitations: Need a lvl 3 capital, they’re (likely) outside of a military province, they’re limited in number (being an AOR unit), and have -10 morale to reflect historical grievances.

Corinthian Spears: Buffed to 50 armor. Many factions have an elite spear unit with stats that approximate Thorax Spears, but I don’t want to go that far. Not only does 50 armor reflect Corinth’s wealth, but their 3 speed is crucial in a period when most well-armed units have 2.

Cretan Levies: Gave ‘em +1 ammo and +10 morale. Now they’re slightly better than our Euzonoi (+1 M.Defense and +5 armor). The only negative is being a lot more expensive, which is not what you want your Euzonoi to be.

AOR units still in progress: Spartan Hoplites (maybe make into veterans?), Skiritai Swords, & Skiritai Peltasts.

Crete and Political Parties
I’ve made the four political parties for the League be Boule, Athenian Nobles, Spartan Nobles, & Rhodian Nobles. Crete will not start as part of the League.

Why? While taking Crete is annoying, it adds a layer of difficulty onto the early game. If the player controlled all of Hellas, they would immediately steamroll north. This way the player’s attention is torn in two different directions.

Army Compositions
The historical army templates in my strategy guide have less cav starting out (8%) and gradually progress to 13% by the endgame. I'll offer three: Classical, Alexandrian, and Greco-Roman.

_______________________________________________________________

As always, I’m open to discussions and disagreements. One thing I’m struggling with is balancing Hellenic Pikes and AOR Macedonian Pikes. My intent is for Hellenic Pikes to be a mix between Levy Pikes and Trained Successor Pikes.

Indeed, as a general balancing philosophy I think AOR units should be good. I kinda dislike how useless the vast majority of AOR units are.

[Garbad]

Looks great. I'm excited to play.