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Thread: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

  1. #61
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Is it such a hard concept to grasp? Justice means all are equal before the law, that means you can't single out the germans and say that is justice. All war crimes need to be punished.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Is it such a hard concept to grasp? Justice means all are equal before the law, that means you can't single out the germans and say that is justice. All war crimes need to be punished.
    As you refuse to say that you consider London and Coventry as a warcrime then the British can not, by your own example, be held accountable for Dresden.

    It's either both are crimes or none are crimes, your constant protestations about Dresden are hypocritical and empty unless you acknowledge London and Coventry as crimes.

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Is it such a hard concept to grasp? Justice means all are equal before the law, that means you can't single out the germans and say that is justice. All war crimes need to be punished.
    Bombing civilians wasn't a war crime. It's why the world came up with the Fourth Geneva Conventions which were drafted to prevent the scale of civilian bombardment seen in WW2.

    Complain about Allied bombing. Axis bombing was no better and just as deadly. Considering the scale of war crimes that Japan and Germany committed they got off fairly easy.

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    @95thrifleman: You don't want to acknowledge Dresden either!
    OK, I say it: I am deeply sorry for the loss of life by the Luftwaffe bombing Coventry and London, which were illegal.
    Now atone for the crimes of the RAF in Germany or i'll suffer a mental breakdown and revoke the previous statement!
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    @95thrifleman: You don't want to acknowledge Dresden either!
    OK, I say it: I am deeply sorry for the loss of life by the Luftwaffe bombing Coventry and London, which were illegal.
    Now atone for the crimes of the RAF in Germany or i'll suffer a mental breakdown and revoke the previous statement!
    Your the one who thinks it's a warcrime not me.

    However I shall happily retract the accusation of hypocrisy.

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Dresden is overblown. Only around 25,000 people died. Almost twice as many people died in the Hamburg bombings. The bombings of Berlin likely killed more people too.

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Hamburg (Operation Gomorrha) was worse. 34000 dead and 125000 wounded. The perfect fire storm because of hot summer weather. But the difference to Dresden is after WW II there was already in 1946/1947 a common british/german fair. Prince Charles was there in 1995. Dresden was always used by GDR for antiimperialistic propaganda and after 1990 by Neonazis.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Germany formally recognized the Herero genocide and paid tribute.
    Do you suppose the pre-1945/46 regime would have any time if it remained in power?
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?


    Kim Phuc escapes Jimmy Savile


    Question for the OP, retreading WWI-WWII, Vietnam, slavery, grievances of the honored dead, past genocides and wars basically, etc etc... why? Even 9/11 is getting too old, if not for how it had been misused. It really hasn't been invoked in a good while, because even among those who remember, it just doesn't sting. Aren't there present-day troubles you could share with us instead? After all, this isn't the history or my first sock puppet sub.
    Last edited by Kyffhäuser; February 18, 2019 at 01:49 PM. Reason: ps

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Again, that doesn't change anything. Why is germans suffocating in shelters OK and jews suffocating in gas chambers bad?
    Either we condemn all war crimes or we condemn no war crimes. The hypocritical victor's narrative "(insert US enemy) is the bad one" is unacceptable.
    I don't think anybody defends war crimes? For example, you don't see people defending the soviets for raping berlin?
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    I see people defending firebombing civilians, which is a million times worse than rape.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    I see people defending firebombing civilians, which is a million times worse than rape.
    Very debatable, rape victims have to live the rest of their lives like that and can have children they don't actually want because it reminds them of their rapist.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    The mass rape by the russians was terrible, but it wasn't the end of the world. It was preferable to suffocating in a cellar or becoming the target of nuclear weapon testing, that's for sure.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    The mass rape by the russians was terrible, but it wasn't the end of the world. It was preferable to suffocating in a cellar or becoming the target of nuclear weapon testing, that's for sure.
    Speak for yourself lol.

    I suspect most people would rather die.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 25, 2019 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Personal.
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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Well, there were many suicides during the fall, and some rape victims died one way or another, but you can't generalize and say all women in Berlin would prefer to die. Quite the opposite, they rebuild the city (the famous rubble women). Rape was also not exclusive to russians, the american soldiers did it too, to a lesser extent.
    Last edited by Mayer; February 18, 2019 at 04:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    I see people defending firebombing civilians, which is a million times worse than rape.
    Bombings were necessary to help eliminate Germany and Japan's military capacity.

    You don't have to feign sympathy though. We both know you don't really care about the number of Germans who died in bombings anymore than you care about those killed by Germany's bombing campaigns itself. I think you just wanna criticize the Allies and how they conducted war.

    Oh well. Guess Germany shouldn't have started a war.

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Bombings were necessary to help eliminate Germany and Japan's military capacity.
    The strategic results were not that big, german war production was rising late-war, despite the intense air raids. All in all, i would consider strategic bombing to be a military failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You don't have to feign sympathy though. We both know you don't really care about the number of Germans who died in bombings anymore than you care about those killed by Germany's bombing campaigns itself. I think you just wanna criticize the Allies and how they conducted war.
    Be subject to the self-flagellation that is the criminalization of our history, you would also be outraged. Also, i believe that the ICC can only be impartial in its prosecution of war criminals when all are judged with the same measure, including the victors of WW2, especially the United States of America with its recent transgressions of international law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Oh well. Guess Germany shouldn't have started a war.
    Britain and France declared war on Germany.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    The strategic results were not that big, german war production was rising late-war, despite the intense air raids. All in all, i would consider strategic bombing to be a military failure.


    Be subject to the self-flagellation that is the criminalization of our history, you would also be outraged. Also, i believe that the ICC can only be impartial in its prosecution of war criminals when all are judged with the same measure, including the victors of WW2, especially the United States of America with its recent transgressions of international law.


    Britain and France declared war on Germany.
    After germany invaded poland and being warned they'd declare war if their ally was invaded, let's not rewrite history.
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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    The strategic results were not that big, german war production was rising late-war, despite the intense air raids.
    That's almost true. Industrial capacity itself was not affected much but Germany's oil infanstructure and refining was outright destroyed by Allied bombing. Germany's transportation and communication infanstructure was also severely damaged by bombing.

    The biggest result though was this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich

    In July 1944, American strategic bombing brought 98% of all of Germany’s aviation fuel plants to halt, and monthly production dropped to 51,000 tons. Fuel stock reserves dropped by 70% since April 1944, to 370,000 tons in June 1944, and to 175,000 tons in November. After the June attacks, recovery efforts in the following month could only bring back 65% of aviation fuel production temporarily. Chronic fuel shortages, severe curtailment of flying training and further accelerated deterioration in pilot quality steadily decreased the Luftwaffe's effective fighting capabilities in the last months. By the end of the campaign, American forces claimed to have destroyed 35,783 enemy aircraft and the RAF claimed 21,622, for a total of 57,405 German aircraft claimed destroyed. The USAAF dropped 1.46 million tons of bombs on Axis-occupied Europe while the RAF dropped 1.31 million tons, for a total of 2.77 million tons, of which 51.1 percent was dropped on Germany.[5] In addition to the direct damages incurred by Germany's industry and air force, the Wehrmacht was forced to use millions of men,[13] thousands of artillery pieces,[14] and hundreds of millions of shells in a desperate attempt to halt American-British Combined Bomber Offensive.[15]
    Strategic bombing brought 98% of aviation fuel plants to a halt in July 1944.

    The majority of the German air Force was used to defend against these bombings. Germany posts tens of thousands of aircraft and veteran pilots to this bombing campaign.

    Millions of men and resources that could have been used elsewhere were forced to be used to address the Allied bombings.

    Strategic bombing was certainly not a failure in any terms.


    Britain and France declared war on Germany.
    After Germany invaded Poland. Why leave out that key detail?

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    Default Re: Why was it okay for America to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

    The strategic results were not that big, german war production was rising late-war, despite the intense air raids. All in all, i would consider strategic bombing to be a military failure.
    Vanoi hit some of the points I was going to make. But The CBO was the attack the US and UK could undertake. It was critical to demonstrate to Stalin the US and UK were not just watching reds died. Its not just as Vanoi noted that the CBO consumed the German Air force it also consumed a huge amount a of flack guns (heavy guns you know the kind that could have eliminating T-34s) that also used ammunition a prodigious rate fare greater than army use of the same guns. Also of course all the manpower and logistics used to run the flak batteries With no CBO Germany was desperate to defend against it would have had vastly more planes and guns and men to use on the Eastern Front. A plane or gun not fighting the USSR was a good for the war effort.
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