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Thread: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

  1. #41
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Pres. Obama greatly misused the executive powers to his own ends when Congress did not help out with legislation such as DACA. Pres. Trump, I agree should not have done so with legislative authority specific to the wall. Just as the executive orders of Pres. Obama were rescinded when Pres. Trump came into office, so to will these executive actions be rescinded when he leaves office. This is the real problem with a dysfunctional legislative branch. Just as Congress is lazy with legislating rules and regulations and leaving this to the Executive Branch, the Presidents re often taking the easy route of ignoring working with the legislature.

    @Azorica in #30 This is a national security issue. You are wandering into other areas which are not the same. Greenhouse gases 'could' be an emergency. But you would still need related programs to shuffle the budgeted / appropriates funds between.

  2. #42
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    How is this a national security issue?
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  3. #43
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Border control has been traditionally consider national security. Not just in the USA, but for most of the countries of the world.

    United States Customs and Border Protection (USCBP) is the largest federal law enforcement agency of the United States Department of Homeland Security, and is the country's primary border control organization. It is charged with regulating and facilitating international trade, collecting import duties, and enforcing U.S. regulations, including trade, customs, and immigration. CBP is one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the United States.[1][2] It has a workforce of more than 45,600 sworn federal agents and officers. It has its headquarters in Washington, D.C.[3]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._C...der_Protection

    Just to give a link why this is national security or do you believe that Department of Homeland Security is something else?

  4. #44

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    This, coupled with the shutdown and the legal fees that will no doubt go to defending this retarded move.
    Well wait, it would have cost 5.8 billion maximum. This is a drop in the bucket of the federal budget, it amounts to like 30 minutes of total federal funding for everything in the federal government. The legal fees are nothing. Those challenging it are special interest groups like the SPLC or ACLU. The groups opposing it are already funded government employees.

    Baby didn't get his way, so now he's trying to circumvent congress with a fake emergency. Not only does this reek of temper tantrum, but also of authoritarian style power grab. His announcement was even more rambling and incoherent than usual, plus ignoring facts and statistics to push his pretend emergency.
    How is it a fake emergency? How are Pelosi and Schumer not babies for not even trying to negotiate to begin with? The facts and statistics are basically true, based on most fact checkers and even more significantly the American people at large who support Trump in record numbers following the SOTU address which was a resounding success for the President where he enumerated these issues.

    Trump literally could have had his wall funding at anytime before Democrats came in. It's not their fault Trump is incompetent.
    Yes and no. It isn't that Trump is incompetent, it is that characters like butthurt McCain made it his personal mission to thwart the President at every turn. With healthcare, the wall, and everything else. Ever since his death, things have been easier for Trump. I won't be gleeful over the death of this man, but his politics was appalling, mendacious, and overall an insurgency to actual conservative goals. I don't miss him.

  5. #45
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    A Not too serious look at this Pres. Trump emergency by Baldwin and SNL: https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/17/media/snl/index.html

    And there were plenty of Republicans not too enthusiastic for the wall spending. It is not just outraged partisans. https://video.foxnews.com/v/60031643...#sp=show-clips

    (yes a Rush Limbaugh show clip from FoxNews. So just do not look if you do not want to.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Well wait, it would have cost 5.8 billion maximum. This is a drop in the bucket of the federal budget, it amounts to like 30 minutes of total federal funding for everything in the federal government. The legal fees are nothing. Those challenging it are special interest groups like the SPLC or ACLU. The groups opposing it are already funded government employees.
    Something tells me he's not gonna be too popular with landowners. The Bundys lost their when they were taxed for grazing on public land. Imagine how bad it could get when the government comes to people's property along the border saying it belongs to the US government now, along with the protests on the rez should the government decide to swipe their lands along the border.


    How is it a fake emergency?
    Illegal immigration has been down for well over a decade and most drugs come in through legal ports of entry rather than unregulated parts of the border. The only real crisis going on is the humanitarian one created by ICE separating families. This "invasion" that Trump is screeing about is simply non existent

    How are Pelosi and Schumer not babies for not even trying to negotiate to begin with?
    They offered up funding for additional border security, but Trump threw a tantrum and shut down the government.

    The facts and statistics are basically true, based on most fact checkers
    Correct, see my sources. Yet he vehemently denies reality.

    and even more significantly the American people at large who support Trump in record numbers following the SOTU address which was a resounding success for the President where he enumerated these issues.
    Ackchyually


    Yes and no. It isn't that Trump is incompetent, it is that characters like butthurt McCain made it his personal mission to thwart the President at every turn. With healthcare, the wall, and everything else. Ever since his death, things have been easier for Trump. I won't be gleeful over the death of this man, but his politics was appalling, mendacious, and overall an insurgency to actual conservative goals. I don't miss him.
    So he could have gotten his wall any time between McCain's death and the Democrats taking the House. Still makes him incompetent.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    How is this a national security issue?
    Ability to control who gets across borders is a national security issue, especially given the current state of the country that US shares its border with.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Border control has been traditionally consider national security. Not just in the USA, but for most of the countries of the world.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._C...der_Protection

    Just to give a link why this is national security or do you believe that Department of Homeland Security is something else?
    Sorry that was a lazy post, I should've been clearer. What I meant to ask is how is the national security of the US threatened by the nonexistence of the wall? Where is the national security emergency that would warrant the declaration of one to build it?
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  9. #49

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Where is the national security emergency that would warrant the declaration of one to build it?
    Yeah, normally national emergency declarations are limited to truly unambiguous threats to our very existence such as "certain persons undermining democratic processes or institutions in Belarus" or "certain persons contributing to the situation in Burundi".
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #50
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Yeah, normally national emergency declarations are limited to truly unambiguous threats to our very existence such as "certain persons undermining democratic processes or institutions in Belarus" or "certain persons contributing to the situation in Burundi".
    None of which authorised military action.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ergencies.html
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall



    After this satire Trump is talking from retaliation, where is republican uproar about "protecting freedom of speech against public censure"?
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  12. #52

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    None of which authorised military action.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ergencies.html
    Depends on the scale. Again, it comes down to the fact that US shares its border with an unstable and corrupt state that has a huge organized crime problem.

  13. #53

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    None of which authorised military action.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ergencies.html
    I suppose the New York Times thinks it sounds scarier to invoke the image of "military action". I can only imagine how terrifying the threat of Trump potentially calling up reserves must be to those who believe he is "literally Hitler", but to me, the image of soldiers helping to build a wall along our border is about as scary as the image of soldiers handing out water bottles.

    What my point was, is that the "emergency" aspect of so-called national emergencies has traditionally been an abuse of the term, for the most part. At least if the nation being referred to is ours. I mean, at least this one pertains to our border, rather than say, the situation in Burundi.

    It will be interesting to see how the legal action goes. The bigger issue regarding the limits of presidential authority is really something we need to sort out. Although, Trump already having said "I didn't need to do it" might undermine the whole test.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #54
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I suppose the New York Times thinks it sounds scarier to invoke the image of "military action". I can only imagine how terrifying the threat of Trump potentially calling up reserves must be to those who believe he is "literally Hitler", but to me, the image of soldiers helping to build a wall along our border is about as scary as the image of soldiers handing out water bottles.
    Well the NYT isn't invoking the image of military action because military action is what Trump requested by asking the military to build the wall. I don't think the issue is that this 'military action' will somehow result in Trump imposing a dictatorship, but that it's an abuse of power and a waste of time and resources.

    What my point was, is that the "emergency" aspect of so-called national emergencies has traditionally been an abuse of the term, for the most part. At least if the nation being referred to is ours. I mean, at least this one pertains to our border, rather than say, the situation in Burundi.
    Agreed, until Trump thought about declaring this emergency I wasn't aware of how relatively common they actually were. I'm not sure what the deal is with these 'emergency sanctions' but it seems like there should be an easier way of imposing them.

    It will be interesting to see how the legal action goes. The bigger issue regarding the limits of presidential authority is really something we need to sort out. Although, Trump already having said "I didn't need to do it" might undermine the whole test.
    Indeed, it's becoming a bit of a cliche to state that until Trump most of these powers weren't closely examined because nobody before Trump pushed the limits as much as he does. Hopefully a more rigorous reform of who has what powers will be enacted in the future because from what I gather the Founders did not intend for the Executive to have this much power.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    The executive has been gaining power steadily since Teddy Roosevelt, it would be a good thing for the US if they curtailed it, significantly.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Agreed, until Trump thought about declaring this emergency I wasn't aware of how relatively common they actually were. I'm not sure what the deal is with these 'emergency sanctions' but it seems like there should be an easier way of imposing them.
    They are fairly common. They're just typically declared for incidents like Hurricane Maria or Hurricane Florence.

    Not because he doesn't like Congress's power of the purse.
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  17. #57
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    As a side comment I dislike the use of armed forces for big engineering projects. We have disproportionately large emergency services in Australia (big country, low population, too many emus) and the question always arises "shouldn't we let the army fight fires/conduct flood relief/ repair roads", I always starts with obvious cases (and the army is currently assisting with flood rescues in Queensland, doing a great job) but it shades over into having them paint bus stops and collect rubbish on highways.

    I think the army is being roped in to build the wall more for optics than anything else. Its a disgrace that military funds would be diverted from some other mission for this window dressing, it amounts to Nero fiddling. Of course maybe the army was going to use a few billion for the generals-only golf course, but even that would be more useful.

    Will Chuck Norris or a rebranded Kiefer Sutherland make an appearance in this farce? Maybe mechas disguised as famous fake wrestlers could patrol the Wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Yeah, normally national emergency declarations are limited to truly unambiguous threats to our very existence such as "certain persons undermining democratic processes or institutions in Belarus" or "certain persons contributing to the situation in Burundi".
    While its a much abused power, those situations were rapidly changing scenarios in which US foreign policy interests were directly affected, requiring extra resources to address.

    The Mexican Border hasn't moved recently, it hasn't changed recently, its no seeing increased traffic or crime recently, the amount of drugs hasn't spiked. Its not an emergency. The People through their representatives have been asked to evaluate the President's policy on the Mexican Border and its been rejected. Trump's emergency is he's being investigated (and possibly snowed) and needs a distraction.

    I have to agree with Pontifex, whether this is a good or bad policy its a very bad precedent. We saw Obama using some nasty powers given to Bush, the next goon on the White House merry go round will have another tool for ignoring the will of the people. Cripes I'm sounding like Michael Moore now.
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    I'm fine with a wall being built. But as a conservative who abhors the expansion of executive power and unilateral executive actions, I absolutely detest this action and would be willing to support an impeachment over this



  19. #59

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    The issue is we’re not exactly being invaded. Numbers over the south border have gone down over the last decade. The case for Trump’s Wall is campaign propaganda. It’s nowhere near anything regarding an emergency.

    So what does he do? Declare one with the sole purpose of overriding Congress’ Budgetary power. Because he didn’t get what he wants.

    It will be interesting to see how this is used in the future.
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  20. #60

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Well the NYT isn't invoking the image of military action because military action is what Trump requested by asking the military to build the wall.
    That was just an offhand comment about the state of their industry. I doubt construction projects are what most people think of when someone refers to a president taking military action, but "Trump’s Emergency Declaration Is the First Since 9/11 to Authorize Military Action" makes for an eye-catching title. Arguably misleading, yet technically factual, a nice bit of subtle psychological priming sure to play on anxieties and leave one feeling outraged. There's no deeper political point, I just happen to be fascinated with this sort of stuff (PDF):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Unfortunately censored:
    One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much BS. Everyone knows this. Each of us contributes his share. But we tend to take the situation for granted. Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize BS and to avoid being taken in by it. So the phenomenon has not aroused much deliberate concern, or attracted much sustained inquiry. In consequence, we have no clear understanding of what BS is, why there is so much of it, or what functions it serves. And we lack a conscientiously developed appreciation of what it means to us. In other words, we have no theory. I propose to begin the development of a theoretical understanding of BS, mainly by providing some tentative and exploratory philosophical analysis. I shall not consider the rhetorical uses and misuses of BS. My aim is simply to give a rough account of what BS is and how it differs from what it is not, or (putting it somewhat differently) to articulate, more or less sketchily, the structure of its concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I have to agree with Pontifex, whether this is a good or bad policy its a very bad precedent.
    Yeah, that's the problem. Although I'm not sure it's even expected to succeed. I think the idea is to cover the campaign promise, throw the cards up in the air and see where they land. If congress moves to block it, it puts Republicans who might have only been lending lip service to idea in an awkward position. Either way, Trump gets to continue to dominate the news cycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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