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US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall - Page 10
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Thread: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

  1. #181
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    ...

    I know the 'wall' is not a perfect solution, but I wished that Congress would offer some effective solution and fund it. If not a wall as a part of the solution, fund something that will stop the flow.
    This is a most irritating element, the point scoring in this situation. Neither side is working toward a genuine solution, its like they want a cess-pit situation so they can throw their opponent into it, rather than drain it.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #182

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    I mean, how many soldiers (or whatever you want to call the border forces) are necessary to effectively control one kilometer of fence? 10? 20? How long is the border to Mexico again? I honestly don't have a stinking clue, but i would say that at the very minmum, you would need 50.000 guys to secure that wall. Not including the airbases you'd have to build along the border for the helicopters you would need. That's a little army you would require to hold that wall only to keep off a bunch of desperate Mexicans. Have fun with that, guys.
    The way the Israeli Negev barrier works is that it's two layers of fence with surveillance and detection equipment.

    It looks like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It only has to prevent infiltration long enough for guards to arrive on the scene. It's basically a personnel effectiveness multiplier, because it removes the need for constant patrolling, guards only have to be where they're needed and have a warning ahead of time in most cases. It's been near 100% effective and costs less per unit of length than Trump is asking for. Most of the construction labor was done by economic migrants who crossed the border before the barrier went up. Building a wall that you can't easily see through is foolish.

    I think if we put up a barrier that's effective, it would also be useful to offer a limited time amnesty deal for people already in the US who haven't committed any crimes (other than illegal entry) that would satisfy those who feel illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to get off without any consequences. Like a limited time frame that they can turn themselves in and be allowed to apply for citizenship legally in exchange for paying a fine, maybe a fine that is paid in payments over a period of time and goes toward funding border security.

    I can imagine that there could be better solutions if people who would like a more liberal immigration policy and people who want stricter control of the border were willing to work together more on the issue and make some compromises, but that's probably somewhat of a fantasy world where this issue is actually about immigration and security rather than tribal affiliation and identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #183

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    That is perhaps some of the most persistent myths out there, that there is somehow no alternative. The congress passed a funding worth over a billion dollars even before the shutdown to finance a number of measures. They've been utilizing other measures for years. The number of illegal entrants have not been decreasing for no reason. So, yeah, they've been funding various measures to stop the flow for years.
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  4. #184
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The way the Israeli Negev barrier works is that it's two layers of fence with surveillance and detection equipment.

    It looks like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    It only has to prevent infiltration long enough for guards to arrive on the scene. It's basically a personnel effectiveness multiplier, because it removes the need for constant patrolling, guards only have to be where they're needed and have a warning ahead of time in most cases. It's been near 100% effective and costs less per unit of length than Trump is asking for. Most of the construction labor was done by economic migrants who crossed the border before the barrier went up. Building a wall that you can't easily see through is foolish.

    I think if we put up a barrier that's effective, it would also be useful to offer a limited time amnesty deal for people already in the US who haven't committed any crimes (other than illegal entry) that would satisfy those who feel illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to get off without any consequences. Like a limited time frame that they can turn themselves in and be allowed to apply for citizenship legally in exchange for paying a fine, maybe a fine that is paid in payments over a period of time and goes toward funding border security.

    I can imagine that there could be better solutions if people who would like a more liberal immigration policy and people who want stricter control of the border were willing to work together more on the issue and make some compromises, but that's probably somewhat of a fantasy world where this issue is actually about immigration and security rather than tribal affiliation and identity.
    Ok, i didn't expect that my ranting could be a possible substitute for the logistics lol.

    Look at that monster. With respect, I don't have to remind you that we are not talking about Israel here. Can you visualize that thing to be carved through North America or Mexico?

    Can we really assume this is just a simple calculation of logistical effort per kilometer? The psychological impact on the world would be massive. You know better than i how the US public reacted when a basically harmless simpleton got elected into office.


    I also was hoping that the US could think of something that could be implemented in Europe... You know how it is... If the Romans crucify, it's an act of civilising progress, not psychopathic barbarism...
    Last edited by swabian; March 02, 2019 at 05:33 AM.

  5. #185
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    The wall is pointless. It could be built and financed, but it could not be maintained for long. It has to be patrolled all the time and it would have to be a long term project. Not something that the next POTUS abandons right away. It would be an absurd mammoth project that would ony achieve 10% to 20% of what it is supposed to do.

    There must be smarter methods there to patrol and secure borders. How about drone and satellite based surveillance?
    The wall is thing buying so its easy. Its an approach Congress likes. Build a new thing and say look we did something. The wall has become polarized because of Trump, but I bet if say Jeb had won without the wall rhetoric and overt racism and slipped in 5 billion or 20 billion for wall extension he would have got it especially if buried in a larger infrastructure plan (Even for Trump probably had he buried in an actual Trillion dollar infrastructure plan).

    What is missing is the follow up investment - maintenance some US projects rarely price in. But critically manpower and paying for more and the best people. The Boarder patrol has to work a fairly grueling 'police' job and often in remote areas. Unless your whole family likes hiking living rural Texas is not a spectacular move to destination with crappy utilities and lack of scintillating entertainment and the delight of red state rural schools. Let's see to I want to earn crappy wages in nowhere Texas or say take that campus cop job in Madison? Thus yes the Israel walls work they are guarded by highly motivated soldiers and paramilitary units.

    https://www.cato.org/publications/co...-border-patrol

    https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2...dministration/

    Trump wants to expand the Boarder patrol but seems not to care about taking steps to deal with securing and retaining quality officers (a redo of the Bush era expansion and its problems).
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  6. #186

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Look at that monster. With respect, I don't have to remind you that we are not talking about Israel here. Can you visualize that thing to be carved through North America or Mexico?

    Can we really assume this is just a simple calculation of logistical effort per kilometer? The psychological impact on the world would be massive. You know better than i how the US public reacted when a basically harmless simpleton got elected into office.
    Well, my contention wasn't that we could confidently expect the same result dollar for dollar, nor that the political will necessarily even exists in the US, but that an effective barrier functions like a personnel multiplier as part of a system.

    Whereas the various designs being forwarded for the US-Mexico wall look a waste of money to me:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    For comparison, here's a section of what we already have:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    And some nice trolling of it:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #187

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...rease.amp.html

    Hey this New York Times article from three days ago describes the border as being at a “breaking point” with 76,000 illegal immigrants crossing the border in February. If we stay at that average we’ll be looking at almost a million illegals coming in a single year. Does that count as an emergency? If not what number does?

  8. #188

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...rease.amp.html

    Hey this New York Times article from three days ago describes the border as being at a “breaking point” with 76,000 illegal immigrants crossing the border in February. If we stay at that average we’ll be looking at almost a million illegals coming in a single year. Does that count as an emergency? If not what number does?
    The article seems to do a very bad job at presenting the data. That 76k number is for February alone and its a record based on what it was a year ago. While the article shows average apprehension rate under Trump to be at 32k it doesn't tell average border crossings. Looking at the graph I can guesstimate that only a few thousand (less than 5k) that make it in successfully. Then of course, the number of border crossings have been in decline for over a decade. You tell us what makes it an emergency. Trump himself said that he didn't need to do it.
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  9. #189

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The article seems to do a very bad job at presenting the data. That 76k number is for February alone and its a record based on what it was a year ago. While the article shows average apprehension rate under Trump to be at 32k it doesn't tell average border crossings. Looking at the graph I can guesstimate that only a few thousand (less than 5k) that make it in successfully. Then of course, the number of border crossings have been in decline for over a decade. You tell us what makes it an emergency. Trump himself said that he didn't need to do it.
    So let me see if I understand this, article clearly says in paragraph two “an eleven year high” and that only takes into account a year ago?
    The article also states that 268k have already been apprehended in five months of this fiscal year and last years total was 400k. If the trends hold, and they seem to be getting worse since we just reached an 11 year monthly high, were on target to have 640k apprehensions this fiscal year, a 50% increase year over year. Considering even the New York Times believes that the border should be described as “at a breaking point”, I would say that we’re currently at a state of emergency on the border.

    Whose gonna pay to house, educated, feed, and provide medical care to this? Shall we raise taxes on the poor who will have wage suppression and employment displacement because of this new surge or shall we soak the rich to pay for it?

  10. #190

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    So let me see if I understand this, article clearly says in paragraph two “an eleven year high” and that only takes into account a year ago?
    The article also states that 268k have already been apprehended in five months of this fiscal year and last years total was 400k. If the trends hold, and they seem to be getting worse since we just reached an 11 year monthly high, were on target to have 640k apprehensions this fiscal year, a 50% increase year over year. Considering even the New York Times believes that the border should be described as “at a breaking point”, I would say that we’re currently at a state of emergency on the border.

    Whose gonna pay to house, educated, feed, and provide medical care to this? Shall we raise taxes on the poor who will have wage suppression and employment displacement because of this new surge or shall we soak the rich to pay for it?
    It's either a mistake or a case of lying through statistics. Here is the estimated trend:



    A simple search showed me that the 76 thousand figure they give is not the total entries, but apprehensions. The apprehensions are at a high level in the past 11 years.



    Last year's apprehension number was 521 thousand, not 400 thousand. The "breaking point" comment is not coming from the New York Times, but from Kevin K. McAleenan, commissioner of Customs and Border Protection, which is why they put it inside quotation marks. Overall, the article, as well as your comments on it, are at best misleading.

    You don't need to tax the poor at all. You can do wonders by just taking the rich with little more. We already know that the illegal immigrants contribute to the US economy as well. Heck, a lot of them even pay taxes.

    Given that it was not an emergency before, including the two years Trump had all the power to do something about it, why don't you tell us which number counts as an emergency?
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