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Thread: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

  1. #121

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    that illegal immigrants do not increase the crime rate in USA
    That conclusion is being extrapolated from Texas where illegal immigrants have a higher crime rate than 81% of the population. You can factually say illegal immigrants make up ~6.4 percent of the Texas population while only making up ~5.4 percent of all homicide convictions, but this is only true because there is a demographic that constitutes ~12% of the population but accounts for ~38% of the homicides. I also don't think anything that devalues low skill wages helps young native born guys into options other than getting involved in criminal activity. My point is that pretending one problem doesn't exist, because another is worse, is politically motivated dishonesty. If the people who are calling out Trump for his distortion of the problem want to be credible, they should not resort to distortions themselves.

    Even using crime rate as a the main talking point is an obfuscation, because illegal immigration certainly increases crime in absolute terms. For example, every murder committed by an illegal immigrant is a murder that would not have happened if there was not illegal immigration. It makes no difference to the family and friends of the victim if there are other demographics who commit more murders. We already have our own native-born criminals, we don't need more. The low relative crime rate among legal immigrants indicates that the ability to institute some degree of screening across the board would be a good thing.

    That said, a wall, as many people might imagine it, isn't really the best approach, in my opinion. Trump praises Israel's "wall" along the Negev border that has been very near 100% effective. It isn't actually a wall.
    Last edited by sumskilz; February 22, 2019 at 06:40 AM. Reason: Reconsidered a few points
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #122

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post


    Fair correction, the US did employ some forts for piffling tasks. The comparisons to the past are apt though as the US is modelled on Rome (not sure if we have Nero or Caligula in power just now), and recent imperial rhetoric sustains the metaphor.

    The US did not rise to greatness behind walls, but attacking the walls of others. From Yorktown to St Mihiel, from Omaha beach to checkpoint Charlie, the US has overcome the limes, fortifications and walls of others. Trump wants to pen the United States like chickens in a coop. Since when did eagles need a coop?
    Um, what? US became great because of isolationism. Many of the problems that American face today stem from when US abandoned that policy because of corrupt politicians.

  3. #123

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    That conclusion is being extrapolated from Texas where illegal immigrants have a higher crime rate than 81% of the population. You can factually say illegal immigrants make up ~6.4 percent of the Texas population while only making up ~5.4 percent of all homicide convictions, but this is only true because there is a demographic that constitutes ~12% of the population but accounts for ~38% of the homicides. I also don't think anything that devalues low skill wages helps young native born guys into options other than getting involved in criminal activity. My point is that pretending one problem doesn't exist, because another is worse, is politically motivated dishonesty. If the people who are calling out Trump for his distortion of the problem want to be credible, they should not resort to distortions themselves.

    Even using crime rate as a the main talking point is an obfuscation, because illegal immigration certainly increases crime in absolute terms. For example, every murder committed by an illegal immigrant is a murder that would not have happened if there was not illegal immigration. It makes no difference to the family and friends of the victim if there are other demographics who commit more murders. We already have our own native-born criminals, we don't need more. The low relative crime rate among legal immigrants indicates that the ability to institute some degree of screening across the board would be a good thing.

    That said, a wall, as many people might imagine it, isn't really the best approach, in my opinion. Trump praises Israel's "wall" along the Negev border that has been very near 100% effective. It isn't actually a wall.
    That's not really your point. You tried a lot to push the issue towards such a direction when it wasn't the case. That's all. A claim was made. Data does not support that claim To not acknowledge the failure of that claim you are trying to create a different conversation that goes well beyond the context of our actual discussion. You can not argue that someone is being politically motivated dishonest while using clearly dishonest arguments. You made no objection when Trump made the claim or when it was used by a forum member, but you made an objection powered by scope manipulation when refuting data was presented.
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  4. #124
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Um, what? US became great because of isolationism. Many of the problems that American face today stem from when US abandoned that policy because of corrupt politicians.
    The Monroe Doctrine was not isolationism, it was aggressive Imperial foreshadowing. The US from before its inception was economically entwined with the British Empire, had largely open borders (this topic has come up before) which were generally less racist than contemporary European policies and enjoyed vigorous cultural exchange ( not all one way) with Europe. It was a largely open society inside and out, with some backward slave states harshly disciplined for their moral failure and backwardness leading to the true flowering of greatness we see today.

    A refusal to engage in entangling allainces was was a wise policy for the young Republic, but it never cowered behind isolationism like the wretched Tokugawa mind-starvers, the dull late Qin, the morally defeated K und K or the hapless redeless final Romanovs.

    I think Trumps asinine policy reeks of cowardice and stupidity, and it seems un-American. He wants to turn the US into a crabbed and bitter hermit state like North Korea.
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  5. #125

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The Monroe Doctrine was not isolationism, it was aggressive Imperial foreshadowing. The US from before its inception was economically entwined with the British Empire, had largely open borders (this topic has come up before) which were generally less racist than contemporary European policies and enjoyed vigorous cultural exchange ( not all one way) with Europe. It was a largely open society inside and out, with some backward slave states harshly disciplined for their moral failure and backwardness leading to the true flowering of greatness we see today.

    A refusal to engage in entangling allainces was was a wise policy for the young Republic, but it never cowered behind isolationism like the wretched Tokugawa mind-starvers, the dull late Qin, the morally defeated K und K or the hapless redeless final Romanovs.

    I think Trumps asinine policy reeks of cowardice and stupidity, and it seems un-American. He wants to turn the US into a crabbed and bitter hermit state like North Korea.
    Huh? Romanovs faced catastrophe because they were entangled in globalist alliance with Entente, just like German Kaiser lost because he was entangled with globalist alliance of Central Powers. Isolationism is simply using your own resources and manpower for your own people. It isn't "weak", it is rational and accountable to one's people. I'm sure that if all the neoliberals and neocons, who care more about their corporate owners and foreign countries then their own citizens, and want to get "involved" on behalf of former, can use their own personal wealth to do that.

  6. #126
    irontaino's Avatar Deadass B
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    The US was certainly not isolationist before or during WW1. The Banana Wars were a thing, as was colonization in The Philippines
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  7. #127

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    There is a degree of difference between small-scale conflicts close to US borders and LARPing as "world policeman" like it does now.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    There is a degree of difference between small-scale conflicts close to US borders and LARPing as "world policeman" like it does now.
    "Close to US borders". The Philippines is nearly 9,000 km from US soil, and that's Hawaii.

    The Tsars used to LARP as the gendarmes of Europe and maintain isolationism at the same time, I'm not sure you're using the word correctly. The US is not isolationist, they used to be non-entangle-list. The Tsarist state collapsed for various reasons, and while isolationism was arguably not one of them, it was a symptom of their failure.
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  9. #129
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    The queen's colonies better take up a large bunch of those poor souls. Or else i predict bad things are coming.

  10. #130

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    "Close to US borders". The Philippines is nearly 9,000 km from US soil, and that's Hawaii.

    The Tsars used to LARP as the gendarmes of Europe and maintain isolationism at the same time, I'm not sure you're using the word correctly. The US is not isolationist, they used to be non-entangle-list. The Tsarist state collapsed for various reasons, and while isolationism was arguably not one of them, it was a symptom of their failure.
    You do realize that Russia was involved in Great war because of being part of a globalist alliance Entente, right? Not to mention that reason why Russia Empire collapse, aside from war itself, was mainly because there were no organization attempt to weed out subversive forces ("Okhranka" was only scary and dangerous in communist propaganda written decades later to make socialist terrorists sound like heroes), which acted on behalf of foreign governments (lenin himself was a German spy). In any case, Russian Empire was not isolationist, so your point doesn't even make sense.

  11. #131
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    I also don't think anything that devalues low skill wages helps young native born guys into options other than getting involved in criminal activity.
    Have you ever worked day field labor? You do realize its seasonal and as soon as you have a family or any other attachments its rather difficult to actually do it for more than a month or so in any one place. Plus I am rather curious bout how all those urban intercity kids in say Chicago are going to get out to the fields. Also you know meat packers kinda like illegals or visa workers since both are afraid to report violations. But Trump is doing nothing to reform the visa system so that workers on them can form unions or not be bound to just the one company that sponsored the visa.

    Raise the minimum wage nationally. Corporations clearly had a ton of money to spend on executive officer bonuses, golden parachutes, stock buy backs (one of the most absurd cons ever lets pop the stock so executives can cash in some options producing zero value to the company good thing we backed the board) and dividend increases in 2018 let them spent some more a on wages


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    It tells us that illegal immigrants are significantly over-represented in the federal prisons compared to the general population even when controlling for those who are only there for immigration related crimes.
    There is a problem with using incarceration rates.You are implying there is direct correlation to crime rates. I would be interested to see data on suspended sentences, parole only and incarceration by race and legal status and age. I am willing to bet being white and legal has rather different outcome than brown and illegal. If for no other reason being being white and legal likely radical improves the chances you got a lawyer who is not an overworked PD who can give you 5 minutes right before your hearing.

    .
    Last edited by conon394; February 24, 2019 at 10:22 AM.
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  12. #132

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    I am willing to bet being white and legal has rather different outcome than brown and illegal.
    Duh, being illegal means breaking law, usually doing that results with a sentencing. Crossing illegally from Canada would result with similar result even while being white.
    Raise the minimum wage nationally. Corporations clearly had a ton of money to spend on officer bonuses, golden parachutes, stock buy backs (one of the most absurd cons ever lets pop the stock so executives can cash in some options producing zero value to the company) and dividend increases in 2018 let them spent some more a on wages.
    Or they would just lay off a whole bunch of people. The blabbering neoliberal moron that we have for PM here in Canada did this, and all it resulted with was destruction of jobs and raising of prices.

  13. #133
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Yes that is the problem with using incarceration as a proxy for commiting crime aside from crossing illegal.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #134
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You do realize that Russia was involved in Great war because of being part of a globalist alliance Entente, right? Not to mention that reason why Russia Empire collapse, aside from war itself, was mainly because there were no organization attempt to weed out subversive forces ("Okhranka" was only scary and dangerous in communist propaganda written decades later to make socialist terrorists sound like heroes), which acted on behalf of foreign governments (lenin himself was a German spy). In any case, Russian Empire was not isolationist, so your point doesn't even make sense.
    What you are producing over all those threads is so aggressively stupid that i'm starting to feel ashamed for wanting to stomp to death any frog i can find.

  15. #135

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    What you are producing over all those threads is so aggressively stupid that i'm starting to feel ashamed for wanting to stomp to death any frog i can find.
    You seem to have a problem with what I said, but al;l I see is one big ad hominem attack.

  16. #136
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You seem to have a problem with what I said, but al;l I see is one big ad hominem attack.
    It's agression against frogs. If you find that inappropriate you can add me on the watchlist at Greenpeace or something.

  17. #137

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    It's agression against frogs. If you find that inappropriate you can add me on the watchlist at Greenpeace or something.
    Green frog made Trump president, drove Democrats insane, made Rockefeller's little heart explode and took McCain and Bush sr's souls into hell. It is a powerful force to be reckoned with.

  18. #138
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Green frog made Trump president, drove Democrats insane, made Rockefeller's little heart explode and took McCain and Bush sr's souls into hell. It is a powerful force to be reckoned with.
    I can see what magic you supersticiously ascribe to the "green frog". The "green frog" is probably 200 billion heavy. Do you believe he needs you to behave like an utter fool on a subforum on a site for computer-games?

  19. #139

    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    I can see what magic you supersticiously ascribe to the "green frog". The "green frog" is probably 200 billion heavy. Do you believe he needs you to behave like an utter fool on a subforum on a site for computer-games?
    I hope you understood I was sarcastic.... Or was I?
    But without addressing what I said, it just sounds like you you are extremely upset over something what I said, but can't come up with a response, hence vague attempts at insulting me.

  20. #140
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: US President Trump Declares National Emergency to Fund His Wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I hope you understood I was sarcastic.... Or was I?
    But without addressing what I said, it just sounds like you you are extremely upset over something what I said, but can't come up with a response, hence vague attempts at insulting me.
    Pfff. I have a foul mood and you are a welcome victim. "Upset"... i could not be colder about this because otherwise i'd have to remove the annoying icicles.

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