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Thread: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

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    Default Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    So, after much teasing, the Progressive wunderkind Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has released a draft proposal of her much hyped "Green New Deal" legislation. Immediately, the right wing has seized upon this, cherry picking specific passages, like providing welfare to those who are "unwilling to work," and docking her for getting basic facts wrong. One part, for example, suggests that during WW2, we invested between 40-50% of our GDP in our economy. Forgetting of course that 1) our GDP is our economy, and instead that she means that Federal Net Outlays, and 2) government expenditure peaked at 40% for two years, and 3) that this was an exceedingly exceptional spending program that was unsustainable in the long run. The document, particularly the FAQ that was released to NPR from AOC's office, is riddled with basic errors and bad math. Comically, it also refers to "cow farts" as being a major producer of Greenhouse gases. Agricultural byproducts account for, at most, 13% of all global methane emissions, which are themselves a fraction of total carbon emissions. However, aside from nitpicks, few--if any people--are concerned with actually assessing the core facts and broad strokes of her policies.

    [Source]

    So, I will begin to do so.

    First Criticism: Much of the Green New Deal has nothing to do with the Environment

    We will begin work immediately on Green New Deal bills to put the nuts and bolts on the plan described in this resolution (important to say so someone else can’t claim this mantle).

    This is a massive transformation of our society with clear goals and a timeline.

    The Green New Deal resolution a 10-year plan to mobilize every aspect of American society at a scale not seen since World War 2 to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions and create economic prosperity for all.

    It will:

    Move America to 100% clean and renewable energy
    Create millions of family supporting-wage, union jobs

    Ensure a just transition for all communities and workers to ensure economic security for people and communities that have historically relied on fossil fuel industries

    Ensure justice and equity for frontline communities by prioritizing investment, training, climate and community resiliency, economic and environmental benefits in these communities. Build on FDR’s second bill of rights by guaranteeing:

    A job with a family-sustaining wage, family and medical leave, vacations, and retirement security
    High-quality education, including higher education and trade schools
    Clean air and water and access to nature
    Healthy food
    High-quality health care


    Safe, affordable, adequate housing
    Economic environment free of monopolies
    Economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work
    Most new Green Deal Proposals have about 2/3s of their proposals being things OTHER than actual environmental activism. Most include heavy regulation or outright nationalization of the Financial Sector, broad critiques of international trade, austerity, modern economic theory, and advocate in favor of leaner military budgets, and a guaranteed minimum income. The Green Party US (which surprisingly is not nearly as retarded), advocated paying for this by slashing 50% off of the US Military budget. Considering that it would free up $500 billion in additional income off of the $1 Trillion of the annual defense budget, this is at least workable.

    I made a similar post in the Political Academy critiquing most Green New Deals. Overwhelmingly they seem to have an entirely inaccurate view of the actual New Deal (which was largely ineffective at eliminating unemployment, as the US still had 14.2% unemployment in 1940), conflate it with massive Keynesian spending during WW2, and then tack on a number of largely irrelevant political and economic objectives that is more just Progressive/Leftist wishful thinking rather than actually having anything to do with the environment.

    Second Criticism: It relies on Junk Economics that is widely discredited

    At face-value, I don't have many complaints against her aims. However, her actual policies on how to achieve these are completely bonkers, and the GND relies upon a heterodox school of Economics known as Modern Monetary Theory. Essentially, MMT is Neo-Chartalism, and is predicated on the assumption that since a nation-state owns its own currency, it can counteract fiscal crises with debts denominated in its own currency. In short, it can inflate away its debt. Since it can do that, therefore deficits do not matter, and they can simply use monetary policy as a substitute for fiscal policy. This, however, requires the government to own and coordinate all means of monetary production, which would include nationalizing the Central Bank (in this case the Fed), as well as all depository institutions (literally every major bank/credit union, and many insurance companies), implement a full 100% reserve system, and then just pump money into the system.

    This has been tried numerous times to ill-effect. In moderate forms, this is the culprit between the inflation wars that plague many Latin American countries, from Chile, to Argentina, and Bolivia. It has also been used in Zimbabwe (hence why Zimbabwe's currency is literally worthless). Most recently, it was the core of Maduro's policies in Venezuela. In effect, its effective at giving the government the ability to spend money by inflating away debts, but it also inflates away everyone's incomes and savings.

    [Source]



    Her exact FAQ cites this:

    How will you pay for it?

    The same way we paid for the New Deal, the 2008 bank bailout and extended quantitative easing programs. The same way we paid for World War II and all our current wars. The Federal Reserve can extend credit to power these projects and investments and new public banks can be created to extend credit. There is also space for the government to take an equity stake in projects to get a return on investment. At the end of the day, this is an investment in our economy that should grow our wealth as a nation, so the question isn’t how will we pay for it, but what will we do with our new shared prosperity
    There's so much wrong with this. The Federal Government's policies in 2008 are complicated since they deal with completely different sectors of the banking system. For starters, the Federal Government nationalized at a loss the two GSEs at the heart of the Crisis: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. To this day, they are still under conservatorship of the US Government and have cost Taxpayers a whopping $150 billion. Secondly, the extensions of loans made the government a net profit under TARP. To bolster the weak economy, the US engaged in tax cuts (fiscal spending) to specific industries, and Low Interest rate policies. The effects were mixed, and led to the slowest post-recession recover of any economic recession since the Great Depression. Explanations are mixed, but most center upon the high indebtedness of US Consumers, as well as the historically high excess reserves (private bank's money parked at the Federal Reserve in excess of required reserves). This peaked at $2.4 trillion in 2014, or about 22% of broad money supply (M3).

    Anyways, if anything, due to the historically low Velocity of Money (approximately 1.46 currently, down from 2.1 during the 1990s to 2000s, and from 1.76 from 1950-1989), there is too much money in the system. Hence, as the economy picks up, velocity is expected to pick up, and this will force excess reserves back into the economy, and will create inflationary pressure and force the Federal Reserve to raise interest rates sharply to counter act this. This will effectively pop the asset bubble (namely stocks and bonds, but also real estate) that have emerged since 2008.

    Having said that, it means that this is precisely the worst time to start flooding the economy with trillions upon trillions of new dollars.


    Third Criticism: It literally rules out nearly every effective policy suggested over the last 30 years

    Almost universally, nearly every credible environmental activist or economist, from Al Gore, to Paul Romer (2018 Nobel Prize in Economics Recipient), to Lester Brown, and NASA Climatologist James Hansen have all argued strongly in favor of a carbon tax.

    Additionally, support comes broadly from libertarians, such as Milton Friedman, conservatives like Greg Mankiw, senior fellows at AEI, former Trump Secretary of State and Exxon Mobile CEO Rex Tillerson, and former Federal Reserve Chairpersons such as Paul Volcker, Ben Bernanke, and Janet Yellen.

    It is estimated that a $100 per carbon ton to $250 per carbon ton tax would reduce emissions broadly across every industry by potentially up to 60%, and would raise over $2.1 trillion over the next ten years. By comparison, even the most optimistic estimates of AOC's proposed Income tax would raise $700 billion (less than a third), while most estimates fall much shorter, such as one twelfth of the same requirement.


    The Green New Deal is a massive investment in the production of renewable energyindustries and infrastructure. We cannot simply tax gas and expect workers to figureout another way to get to work unless we’ve first created a better, more affordable option. So we’re not ruling a carbon tax out, but a carbon tax would be a tiny part ofa Green New Deal in the face of the gigantic expansion of our productive economy and would have to be preceded by first creating the solutions necessary so that workers and working class communities are not affected. While a carbon tax may bea part of the Green New Deal, it misses the point and would be off the table unless we create the clean, affordable options first.
    Secondly, they rule out explicitly cap and trade, which is the backbone of nearly every existing climate policy.

    The Green New Deal is about creating the renewable energy economy through a massive investment in our society and economy. Cap and trade assumes the existing market will solve this problem for us, and that’s simply not true. While cap and trade may be a tiny part of the larger Green New Deal plan to mobilize our economy, any cap and trade legislation will pale in comparison to the size of the mobilization and must recognize that existing legislation can incentivize companies to create toxic hotspots in frontline communities, so anything here must ensure thatfrontline communities are prioritized.
    Thirdly, it rules out nuclear power. To date, the only country to successfully reach its climate goals is France, which gets over 70% of its energy from Nuclear Power. (Note: Australia is about to reach this by 2020, next year, due to its heavy reliance on Hydropower and its investment in Battery Technology). By comparison, the United States receives 20% of its energy needs from Nuclear, and about 17% from renewables--half of which is Hydroelectric. By contrast, over 30% is from Coal and an additional 30% is from Natural Gas. These utilities make up over 70% of our carbon emissions, with transportation accounting for less than 20%. Merely eliminating coal fire plants would allow us to meet our Kyoto and Paris Climate Goals. So the notion that nuclear power is off the table is absolutely absurd.

    Fourthly, our Plan B, which is to reduce the existing carbon in the atmosphere, through Carbon Capture, Utilization, and Storage, is also ruled out.

    We believe the right way to capture carbon is to plant trees and restore our natural ecosystems. CCUS technology to date has not proven effective.

    Fourth Criticism: The plan calls for replacing ALL air travel with high speed rail

    Totally overhaul transportation by massively expanding electric vehicle manufacturing, build charging stations everywhere, build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, create affordable public transit available to all, with goal to replace every combustion-engine vehicle
    I'm not sure if she's aware of the California High Speed Rail boondoggle, which was supposed to be built by 2015 for $30 billion, but instead won't begin construction until 2020, and will cost nearly $100 billion. Also, its insane to think that this will replace air travel. The sheer volume of freight and passengers that moves by air will be staggering, and traveling cross country--even by high speed rail--is insane. It makes Elon Musk's plan of financing the hyperloop by selling novelty flamethrowers on Ebay look like a good idea.


    In reality, the total price tag of this should be the complete replacement of our utility infrastructure (which is already obsolete), and would cost between $3-$4 trillion. A carbon tax alone would pay for 50-66% of the entire budget through direct government expenditures. Additionally, the real advantage of the carbon tax (internalizing the externalities) will cause a ripple effect through the entire economy and force consumers to become aware of the costs of carbon and subsitute away from carbon-intensive goods automatically. However, to avoid a Gilets Jaunes movement in France, this would come with the requirement that additional regressive taxes (such as Sales Taxes or Payroll Taxes) be swapped or reversed. This is exactly Al Gore's original plan from 1992.

    Since most coal plants are unproductive, while new renewables are about half the cost of coal, this should be a relatively easy shift. Combined with modern nuclear reactors, a carbon neutral goal is certainly achievable by 2030. Additionally, with Tesla's Model 3 ratcheting up production to about 120,000 new automobiles per month, its estimated that they alone will be able to crank out about 20 million cars by 2030. This also doesn't even calculate the impact of the Big Three Automobile manufacturers to jump in and replace all cars with electric (which is certainly feasible), nor the impact of existing private sector attempts to create electric semi-trucks (which are the worst culprits for pollution).

    However, the notion that we need to nationalize key industries to build decentralized(?!) networks of solar panels is also just nonsensical. This challenge is far cheaper, far more realistic than the climate skeptics imply, but the policies needed will be far different from AOC's boondoggle of a plan.

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    I mean I’ve said it before on this forum that we need to tackle climate change and eventually use less fossil fuels and eventually none, but this kind of extreme thing validates the worst far right conspiracy theories that climate change is a hoax to achieve an agenda, an extremely ‘progressive’ one in this case.

    Ruling out nuclear and partially ruling out carbon tax is a full-retard level move. You’ve literally kneecapped your means to achieve your objective.

    Trump and the climate deniers will seize upon this and Democrats will have no-one to blame but themselves. This will not help fight climate change, it will only alienate people who actually do want to help the planet, like myself, but aren’t rabid progressives.

    65 out of 235 Democrat House Reps sponsored the deal. 10 Democrat senators sponsored it, including Presidential candidates such as Kamala Harris (who recently had to be cornered outside her office to make a comment on the sexual assault allegations debacle going on in Virginia), Cory Booker, Elizabeth Warren, and Kirsten Gillibrand support the deal. Bernie Sanders also sponsored it.

    And I’m not even gonna start on giving out welfare to people unwilling to work. These socialists are selling a Utopian fantasy.

    Last edited by Aexodus; February 07, 2019 at 11:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    “It’s not just possible that we will create jobs and economic activity by transitioning to renewable energy,” she said, “but it’s inevitable that we are going to create jobs, it’s inevitable that we are going to create industry, and it’s inevitable that we can use the transition to 100 percent renewable as the vehicle to truly deliver and establish economic, social and racial justice in the United States.
    https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/alex...185704625.html

    You left out the part where it's going to end racism.
    I'm frankly baffled so many liberals are embracing this woman as a leader of their party. This deal is also going to "pay for itself".

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    If the GoP are putting this much time into her I guess she's scaring them. If she's proposing something other than "business as usual" its worth a shot, the current fiscal regime is creating even more of an oligarchy than the corrupt Gilded Age. That said the last guy to promise "not business as usual" turned out top be an idiot, so there's that risk.

    Given she's an Hispanic woman it'd be worth her getting elected just to see the wannabe Nazis and Klansmen pop their veins like they did over the Kenyan Muslim guy. If she's incompetent, well we will just be continuing the recent trend of making the presidency a troll trigger contest. "we're pitching a C student draft dodger with an IQ under 80" "well our guy bangs interns" "amateurs, we're going with another idiot movie star...no wait, a trash TV personality with small hands" "huh, we're nominating a sex fiend prescription drug addict and we're blowing his head off in his first term" "paranoiac" "peanut farmer" "that's not actually a bad thing" "sorry, one term only then".
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    She's basically the Democratic Sarah Palin, but quite a bit dumber. Since she's a Democrat, the odds of the media mocking her as they did Palin is pretty much zero.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    She fears nuclear reactors but not an exploding budget. The US is currently heading towards a 1trillion$ deficit, good look building a giant high-capacity rail network before the inflation hits the fan.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Cortez’s policies would result in severe inflation if she nationalised the money supply and just tried to pump more cash into the economy to solve her problems.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    If the GoP are putting this much time into her I guess she's scaring them.
    My take is a bit different... Who needs a strawman when you have this woman? She's a gift to the Republicans, especially if the "future of the Democratic party" keeps being attached to her. The people who really like her stances, the people who feel energized by her, were never going to vote Republican anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    She's basically the Democratic Sarah Palin, but quite a bit dumber. Since she's a Democrat, the odds of the media mocking her as they did Palin is pretty much zero.
    I'm pretty sure it's racist to mock her. She's no Rafael Cruz.
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    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    If you guys are comparing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Sarah Palin then you guys are really out of any sensible arguments.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    The GND is about anti-nuclear power not the climate. It will most likely increase emissions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/02/07/green-new-deal-excludes-nuclear-and-would-thus-increase-emissions-just-like-it-did-in-vermont/#d23d5d19afd

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The War on Nuclear

    In the 1950s and 1960s, nuclear energy was hugely popular, and was supported by large majorities of the public. In response, electric utilities
    committed to build over 200 nuclear reactors between 1966 and 1973. As late as 1975, there were plans to build 1,000 reactors.

    But, starting in the late 1960s, anti-nuclear weapons activists joined forces with misanthropic conservationists to block the deployment of America’s largest source of clean energy.

    “Historically, the antinuclear movement didn’t emerge from environmental concerns, which is why arguments for nuclear’s environmental advantages often fall on deaf ears,”
    noted the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, Richard Rhodes, in The New York Times last Sunday.

    “The movement originated out of a panic among European and American intellectuals in the 1950s and ’60s about overpopulation.”

    Around the same time, as it became clear to most everyone that nations would never ban the bomb, anti-weapons groups like Union of Concerned Scientists switched their
    focus to halting the spread of nuclear energy.

    Anti-nuclear groups had already demonized nuclear weapons as not merely dangerous but also evil and immoral. It was an easy pivot for them to demonize nuclear energy.

    Psychologists described the transference of fear, anger, and hatred from one object or person to another as
    “displacement,” one of the ego’s defense mechanisms. We may hate the boss but he’s too powerful to confront so we kick the dog instead. Nuclear energy was the scapegoat for the persistence of weapons.

    Those who most hated nuclear energy, the ultimate symbol of modernity, were those who most hated — or at least said they hated — modern life.

    In 1973 a former German coal executive turned New Age guru named E.F. Schumacher published a book called
    Small is Beautiful, which exalted the lifestyles of destitute Indian farmers and demonized nuclear plants as “the most serious agent of pollution of the environment and the greatest threat to man’s survival on earth.”

    Media-savvy activists claimed a nuclear power accident would be like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. “A nuclear accident could wipe out Cleveland and the survivors would envy the dead,” consumer advocate Ralph Nader told credulous journalists and hysterical crowds
    in the early 1970s
    .

    Their efforts worked. Researchers in the mid-1970s
    found that “distrust of nuclear power is… rooted in the fear of nuclear weapons.”

    Their explicit goal was to make nuclear expensive. “Our campaign stressing the hazards of nuclear power will supply a rationale for increasing regulation,”
    wrote the Sierra Club Executive Director in a 1975 memo to the board of Directors, “and add to the cost of the industry.”

    Anti-nuclear campaigners managed to kill all but roughly 100 reactors. What got built in their place?
    Coal plants.

    Had just 400 of the promised 1,000 reactors been built, the U.S. would today be producing nearly 100 percent of its electricity from zero-emissions sources, obviating the need for a climate crusade to clean up electricity.

    Apocalypse Renewed

    In the early 1990s, the Soviet Union dissolved along with communist regimes throughout Eastern Europe. The threat of nuclear war between great powers faded.

    Environmentalists needed new justification for renewables. They found it in climate change. Those who had advocated renewables as an alternative to nuclear energy now argued for renewables as an alternative to fossil fuels.

    But there was a problem. Leading climate scientists including NASA’s James Hansen
    started speaking out for nuclear power. By 2016, more of them were advocating the continued operation of nuclear plants than renewables.

    In response, activists like McKibben
    distanced themselves from Hansen and instead heaped praise on a Stanford professor who claimed to have proven that the world could be powered on renewables alone.

    “I’m convinced by the careful work of Mark Jacobson and others that [100% renewables] is possible,” McKibben
    said in 2016.

    But in 2017, a
    major study found that Jacobson’s modeling had rested upon the false assumption that the U.S. could increase the power from its hydroelectric dams ten-fold.

    Their real potential
    turned out to be just one percent of that.

    Without all that extra dam power, Jacobson’s house of cards falls apart. That’s because there’s no other practical way to store large quantities of energy.

    As a result, every time anti-nuclear climate campaigners succeed in closing a nuclear plant, whether in
    California, Germany, or Vermont, the burning of fossil fuels, and carbon emissions, go up.

    As such, the world’s climate advocates have for 30 years misled the world into thinking their main concern is reducing emissions when in reality it is shutting down nuclear plants and scaling up renewables
    Last edited by Aexodus; February 08, 2019 at 11:53 AM.
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    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The GND is about anti-nuclear power not the climate. It will most likely increase emissions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#d23d5d19afd1
    Does the Green New Deal request the nuclear power plants to shut down tomorrow?
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Nuclear or not nuclear power grid, I stick with internal combustion engines for automobiles.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If you guys are comparing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Sarah Palin then you guys are really out of any sensible arguments.
    I was thinking more of Christine O'Donnell; the witchcraft candidate in Delaware.
    I'm interested to see if anyone is going to bother to try to defend this proposal as a legitimate and good idea, or are we just going to accept the fact that this woman is a babbling idiot that no one takes seriously and is only on TV because Democrats think she's going to fire up the millennial vote?

    Heres Nancy Pelosi's take on the bill:
    “It will be one of several or maybe many suggestions that we receive,” Pelosi said. “The green dream or whatever they call it, nobody knows what it is, but they’re for it right?”
    https://www.salon.com/2019/02/07/gre...-climate-plan/
    Last edited by tgoodenow; February 08, 2019 at 10:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    If you guys are comparing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Sarah Palin then you guys are really out of any sensible arguments.
    You're right, she's worse than Sarah Palin. She's the left-wing Trump, thriving on media attention and her own stupidity and disregard of facts.

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Nuclear or not nuclear power grid, I stick with internal combustion engines for automobiles.
    That is what is for the US at least is a key issue. There is no quick or easy way to change the auto dependent nature of the US and its sprawl. I am all for a massive amount of solar and wind, but we do nuclear now and fast - nothing else is as reliable and can provide non CO2 (etc) emissions power on standby (just suck it up and just internationally find the most geologically stable place to bury the waste with everyone paying in and paying to put it in the most recycled and stable form). But how are you going to get all the Americans who depend on cars a new electric one right away? There is a reason lots of people drive their car into the ground because that cannot really afford a new one until they have too. Also I'm not seeing an electric version of an F-250 so I'm thinking a lot of farmers and contractors will up the creek. I also pretty sure no electric grid is ready for 100% of vehicles recharging overnight.

    That being said no political manifesto has to a A paper in econ 505. re the OP. The science is clear the US does need to act and a policy blue print is a fair outline of how much effort needs to put into altering the current reality. Can you criticize any and all pieces I'm sure, but AOC has as a US Pol in the trump era news cycle done well to stake out air time and talk time and create a conversation that is not saving coal and building walls. The US state of being requires it seems bombast to move policy right now.

    I passing how many of FDR's speeches on policy sound like a lecture from Richard V. Gilbert?

    -----------

    The GND is about anti-nuclear power not the climate. It will most likely increase emissions. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#d23d5d19afd1
    Ha no almost everyone is anti Nuclear. Due a survey describe Nuclear as green as the day is long and see who yep build in line of site in my house. Even the residents in Houston who get lock down in place warning on a regular from the petrol-chemical refineries plants would likely say no. And nobody wants the long term storage facility in their back yard.
    Last edited by conon394; February 08, 2019 at 10:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Ha no almost everyone is anti Nuclear. Due a survey describe Nuclear as green as the day is long and see who yep build in line of site in my house. Even the residents in Houston who get lock down in place warning on a regular from the petrol-chemical refineries plants would likely say no. And nobody wants the long term storage facility in their back yard.
    Actually in 2010 62% supported Nuclear in a gallup poll, and now it’s somewhere in the 40s. It’s just not that simple. People would support it if they were better informed. Polls have shown 67% approval of Nuclear.

    https://thebulletin.org/2016/04/publ...influences-it/

    Public opinion is highly changeable. Your assertion that everyone is anti nuclear baffles me to be honest. https://news.gallup.com/poll/190064/...ar-energy.aspx



    And it’s not based on fear of nuclear energy as you imply.

    And although there have not been any major nuclear incidents since Fukushima in 2011, a majority of U.S. adults now oppose nuclear energy. This suggests that energy prices and the perceived abundance of energy sources are the most relevant factors in attitudes toward nuclear power, rather than safety concerns prompted by nuclear incidents.
    Lower gasoline prices over the past year are likely driving greater opposition toward the use of nuclear power. As Americans have paid less at the pump, their level of worry about the nation's energy situationhas dropped to 15-year-low levels. This appears to have resulted in more Americans prioritizing environmental protection and fewer backing nuclear power as an alternative energy source.
    Gas prices have been relatively low over the past year, likely because of the sharp decline in oil and natural gas prices and the apparent glut of oil around the world. This seems to have lessened Americans' perceptions that energy sources such as nuclear power are needed. The increased opposition to nuclear power does not seem to result from a fear of it, as there have been no major nuclear disasters anywhere in the world since 2011.
    Last edited by Aexodus; February 08, 2019 at 12:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  17. #17
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
    took an arrow to the knee

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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    I don't know whether this proposal is good or bad but what I don't see is a whole lot of comprehensive alternatives, especially from Republicans. It's the same as it was with Obamacare. They decried it for years but when it came to actually proposing an alternative they failed spectacularly. That's why we get potentially dumb ideas like this. Until Republicans come up with something better their opinion on stuff like this is utterly irrelevant, especially when they're exacerbating the situation by rolling back environmental regulations.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  18. #18

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    I was thinking more of Christine O'Donnell; the witchcraft candidate in Delaware.
    I'm interested to see if anyone is going to bother to try to defend this proposal as a legitimate and good idea, or are we just going to accept the fact that this woman is a babbling idiot that no one takes seriously and is only on TV because Democrats think she's going to fire up the millennial vote?
    Heres Nancy Pelosi's take on the bill:
    https://www.salon.com/2019/02/07/gre...-climate-plan/
    Comparing her to Christine O'Donnell would be equally pushing... Let's start with something solid though, did you actually read the Green New Deal?


    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    You're right, she's worse than Sarah Palin. She's the left-wing Trump, thriving on media attention and her own stupidity and disregard of facts.
    Sigh... Such passive aggressive comments are not exactly contributing to your position. They simply contribute to the idea that people are not against her because of the lack of merit of her views but quite the opposite. So, carry on.
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #19
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    @ Aexodus

    I would have to take the time to read the poll questions. But my point is did they say do you favor nuclear power and have a hard on for one - a nuclear power plant built near you - in sght. Do you favor it and having the long or even temporary storage facility built in your state (Nevada certainly does not). How about just the high tension wires to move all that electricity around you are OK with that right - even if they are close enough to here the buzz? In the abstract when the power plant is somewhere else and the results of it are as well - sure who would not favor it. I mean I am all cool with China's rare earth near monopoly If they what to poison their home so I get cheap electronics I'm not sure I object guess you don't get NIMBY-ism under the president for life.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    I love the part about giving free money to people who are unwilling to work. That's totally not going to lead to the collapse of a nation. No siree bob.

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