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Thread: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

  1. #61
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. That's a lie that people tell to comfort themselves in case the community rises up as a whole. People want to rule. They like that people that are less fortunate are left behind. They hate it when they're not snowflakes. I don't really care if education and health care being free is communism. People should be able to have access to basic needs. To equate such ideas with making everything free shows how little merit your position has. You are forced to make stuff up.
    Public education and health care is not free. A minimum standard of living can be guaranteed with welfare benefits. But the state giving people everything they want: a house, a workplace, goods, etc. is a step too far. Now i know that historically, socialists have argued for a right to work, but these would almost always be short-term employment in expensive public projects or nonsensical overstaffing in companies.

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a slogan by Karl Marx for the philosophy of communism.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Public education and health care is not free. A minimum standard of living can be guaranteed with welfare benefits. But the state giving people everything they want: a house, a workplace, goods, etc. is a step too far. Now i know that historically, socialists have argued for a right to work, but these would almost always be short-term employment in expensive public projects or nonsensical overstaffing in companies.

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a slogan by Karl Marx for the philosophy of communism.
    Sigh... Yes, people pay for the education and health care with their taxes. It's a rather petty point to use. People do understand when someone says that education and health care to be made free they don't mean no one contributes to its expenses. No, nobody talks about the state giving everything people want. Just because you try to push the conversation to a goal post that nobody is arguing for doesn't make it a valid issue. You have no sensible position if you ground yourself in reality, hence, all the deflections from talking about the real issues.
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  3. #63
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    "No, nobody talks about the state giving everything people want."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    So about their document that advocates free housing, healthcare, food, jobs for all, education for all. It seems like not even socialism, it just looks like Communism.
    It took you 6 minutes to realize how ridiculous your statement that I put in bold sounded?
    Free everything and abolishing money is trying to jump to communism in one step,...
    Nope. That's a lie that people tell to comfort themselves in case the community rises up as a whole. People want to rule. They like that people that are less fortunate are left behind. They hate it when they're not snowflakes. I don't really care if education and health care being free is communism. People should be able to have access to basic needs..
    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a slogan by Karl Marx for the philosophy of communism.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You have no sensible position if you ground yourself in reality
    My sensible position is grounded in reality, unlike socialist pipe dreams. My position is that of a moderate.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    "No, nobody talks about the state giving everything people want."
    My sensible position is grounded in reality, unlike socialist pipe dreams. My position is that of a moderate.
    If that was the case you wouldn't be pushing this vague deflection.
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  5. #65
    Kyffhäuser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    There are no political solutions to any 21st century problem.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Nope. That's a lie that people tell to comfort themselves in case the community rises up as a whole. People want to rule. They like that people that are less fortunate are left behind. They hate it when they're not snowflakes. I don't really care if education and health care being free is communism. People should be able to have access to basic needs. To equate such ideas with making everything free shows how little merit your position has. You are forced to make stuff up.
    You do realize that even if certain goods or services are "free" they still cost money, right?

  7. #67

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You do realize that even if certain goods or services are "free" they still cost money, right?
    That's why God gave us taxation. If the uber-rich don't pay their whack, or worse avoid it altogether, that means working people pay more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyffhäuser View Post
    There are no political solutions to any 21st century problem.
    I would say that there are no conventional solutions to any 21st century problem. Western electorates are still stuck in 1970's 80's style thinking, that they deserve more, at the expense of others, if necessary. Hopefully this utterly selfish generation will die out soon.
    Last edited by mongrel; February 12, 2019 at 08:55 AM.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You do realize that even if certain goods or services are "free" they still cost money, right?
    Post #62.
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  9. #69
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Done badly its a nightmare and I think people in the US realise how utterly corrupt the energy industry is. I agree with POVG, Sweden's nuclear industry is 100% meltdown free, I think France also has a good safety record but the US had Three Mile Island, toxic lakes in upstate New York etc. I think ordinary people are wary of government guarantees about safety, know the Flint water thing isn't nuclear but people there are being told the water is fine and they aren't believing it.
    These problems are often because of inadequately trained personnel. TMI was as you stated a good example of that. The lack of training and disorganized updating of manuals is not only a fault of the nuclear industry though. Blaming that particular industry avoids the problem of blaming the real cause of TMI. I could tell you similar horror stories about Boeing.

    I think the safety records of France and the USA on nuclear power are really comparable. It is just the adverse publicity resulting from media (China Syndrome, for an example) focuses on the the USA. I am not saying that France has a poor record.

    Back to the opening post: This is only proposed legislation and not anything that will even make it out of the House. In all fairness, this is simply repackaging the flawed FDR New Deal ideas for the modern age. This has really nothing to do with Climate Change and more to do with the current concern about income disparity and jobs training. It will be interesting which Democratic Party Presidential hopefuls pick up pieces of this for their manifesto. Trying to tie this to FDR is probably not a bad move for the Democrats either since this is not designed to gather new supporters, but to fire up the basic Democrats that are never going to vote Republican.

    Edit:
    In New York, it was whether to spend the state's money on Amazon's jobs. At the national level, it's visible in the Green New Deal, a list of aspirations a lot of Democrats might agree with. Recently issued as a legislative manifesto by Ocasio-Cortez, it's taken over the Democratic conversation and turned into a sort of litmus test and is dragging the party left heading into 2020.
    from CNN https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/polit...ure/index.html

    So perhaps the New Green Deal is part of the crisis of why there is such a split within the the Democratic Party on things such as state and local incentives (SALT deductions no longer on the federal forms) for job creation versus federalizing the whole mess.
    Last edited by NorseThing; February 17, 2019 at 07:39 PM.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    If this politician can mobilise a fraction of the Democrat "base" she can sink Trump, he crept into office on a small margin by pinching"rusted on" Democrat voters and keeping the majority away from the polls. She can win by disrupting his base and getting a few lazy arses off their seats. All the talk about her mobilising a backlash isn't very persuasive, Trump is as ugly a tool as has ever run for office and he generated a mild "meh" from most voters and a few changed sides maybe because he was offensive?

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    These problems are often because of inadequately trained personnel. TMI was as you stated a good example of that. The lack of training and disorganized updating of manuals is not only a fault of the nuclear industry though. Blaming that particular industry avoids the problem of blaming the real cause of TMI. I could tell you similar horror stories about Boeing.

    I think the safety records of France and the USA on nuclear power are really comparable. It is just the adverse publicity resulting from media (China Syndrome, for an example) focuses on the the USA. I am not saying that France has a poor record.
    I had thought the US record was much worse but a quick google shows the French did have a level 4 incident (US has had a level 5 at Three Mile Island) so its not a pronounced as I had thought, fair point and a silly assumption on my part.

    Private companies will always have profit as their top priority, I guess its a question of whether the government has safety first or is corrupt. The Japanese model has been extremely poor with safety compromised on a number of occasions. That's a country (like Iran) that should not have nuclear power for tectonic reasons, and their poor safety record compounds that problem.

    A friend of mine was working for a Japanese engineering firm during the Fukushima disaster, and was in contact with colleagues in the energy sector there. He told me within two days of the quake the reactors (three or four of them?) had gone into meltdown and the company was refusing to acknowledge it or pass the information on the relevant bodies: it took over a week IIRC and a lot of people were exposed before they even started telling the truth. I don't know what the hell was going on but I recall US military authorities knew more about the meltdown from their measurements as it happened than the Japanese Prime Ministers office.

    The energy sector in the US has some strong pirate elements, like the energy vultures who stitched up California. Of course its not up to me what the US does, but I wouldn't let them have another nuclear plant there, and I'd never agree to let them build one in my country.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    AOC is not even fiscally literate, she promotes an economic model that has consistently failed throughout its application's history(including ongoing failure in Venezuela) and she is only popular among people who live on welfare or people that are as fiscally illiterate as her. If she was Trump's main opponent, he'd eat her for breakfast.
    Her "plan" is something an uneducated child would come up with. I'm quite amused that now Democrats are forced to vote on it, and at least half of them will be against it, which is going to be a huge embarrassment for Dems, and hilarious for the sane people in US.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; February 18, 2019 at 09:53 AM.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    AOC is not even fiscally literate, she promotes an economic model that has consistently failed throughout its application's history(including ongoing failure in Venezuela) and she is only popular among people who live on welfare or people that are as fiscally illiterate as her. If she was Trump's main opponent, he'd eat her for breakfast.
    Her "plan" is something an uneducated child would come up with. I'm quite amused that now Democrats are forced to vote on it, and at least half of them will be against it, which is going to be a huge embarrassment for Dems, and hilarious for the sane people in US.
    Is there a particular reason why you single out Venezuela? You could pick a number of European countries that do just fine, or even Canada. Why ignore them?
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  13. #73

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Is there a particular reason why you single out Venezuela? You could pick a number of European countries that do just fine, or even Canada. Why ignore them?
    Pretty much any socialist policy results with failure. The issue with healthcare (hence you thinking that Canada is socialist) is that in most Western countries it is incredibly over-priced.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Pretty much any socialist policy results with failure. The issue with healthcare (hence you thinking that Canada is socialist) is that in most Western countries it is incredibly over-priced.
    That's demonstrably false. Some of what made Scandinavian countries such great places to live in are exactly such policies.
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  15. #75
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    The nordic model is not socialist
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Pretty much any socialist policy results with failure. The issue with healthcare (hence you thinking that Canada is socialist) is that in most Western countries it is incredibly over-priced.
    True story, the monetised US health system is about the least efficient in the first world with enormous blowouts per episode and per patient: this is a direct result from deregulation and privatisation that kicked off in the 1970's.

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...es/#item-start

    The UK's savage NHS is creepily Darwinian (or Orwellian) but gets amazing bang-for-buck, and its public. Australia has free public health and a relatively inefficient system but if anyone ever complains they just say "at least we're not the US".

    Good old Dick Cheney was part of the vulture crew under Ford that turned the US health system from a variable but generally well performed patchwork of system into a shambles. Great boob jobs for millionaires, everyone else gets to suck eggs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The nordic model is not socialist
    What a bizarre non sequitur. They use a socialised model, with high taxes and government provided health care, similar to what this kid is advocating.

    They also have a monarchy, maybe you could write a thread about how Hispanic US Quislings want to bring back King George?
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  17. #77
    Mayer's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    What a bizarre non sequitur. They use a socialised model, with high taxes and government provided health care, similar to what this kid is advocating.
    That's not entirely true, the nordic states have relatively low corporate taxes. I wouldn't call it a socialised model just because some things are public.
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  18. #78
    Kyffhäuser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I would say that there are no conventional solutions to any 21st century problem. Western electorates are still stuck in 1970's 80's style thinking, that they deserve more, at the expense of others, if necessary. Hopefully this utterly selfish generation will die out soon.
    The trouble is the electorate are selected for apathy, docility, and pacifism. They need to believe some one upstairs - be it Jesus, whistle-blowers, Republicans, or Democrats - are looking out for them. Maybe you remember Bill O'Riley of Fox News had a slogan "we're definitely looking out for you"? Its the slogan of not just one generation, but of a breed of animal who expect to fix a system that is actually working as intended. A certain kind of domestic animal, which is too stupid to tell when its being mocked. Who keeps stuffing little prayers into a box every so often, when their coalition's bat signal flicks on.

    Let me be clear, such people get the leadership they deserve.
    Last edited by Kyffhäuser; February 18, 2019 at 05:52 PM. Reason: ps

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayer View Post
    That's not entirely true, the nordic states have relatively low corporate taxes. I wouldn't call it a socialised model just because some things are public.
    My experience is mostly of Sweden. The personal tax rate is very high, especially compared to the US systems, and IIRC there's tighter corporate tax structures that allow less profit shifting offshore (a major tax minimisation problem in the US). The public health, education and housing systems (plus highly regulated banking sector) all make it look very socialist despite the monarchy and abundance of private companies. Its certainly more socialised than almost anywhere in the US (which of course is a chequerboard of diverse and often mismatched systems).
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  20. #80
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Baffling Idiotic "Green New Deal," and why it will harm efforts to combat Global Warming

    The healthcare system does however profit massively it has to be said from America, where most of the innovation is taking place.
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