Hate-crime and hate-speech

[The spartan]

As I suspected. You do not read what's written, you read what you want it to mean. You've pulled that "subtext" out of your own brain, rather than the post. All I see there is that hate crime is massively overrepresented in media in order to push some agenda, which is pretty much correct, regardless if the agenda is simply to sell more, or some more nefarious manipulation...that much I leave to your speculation. After all, you're very good at inventing those...

Ok, so you are just going to be a partisan hack about this and use HH's many ramblings as a pivot point to further your political goals. Fine. If you really want to be my enemy that badly, I can't really stop you. I also don't get what you are talking about in the bolded part; my interactions with you are much more limited than with HH. It isn't like if you and I "have a history".

Edit: I should also add that the subtext interpretation was indeed my own, I don't know who else would be interpreting, but it isn't a wild midcharacterization of what HH said. What's more, if that isn't really what he meant, he can correct and clarify why he is using that specific example and I will cede that interpretation.

And why use this example and not another? Why not? You could speculate about any example, this one is just as good as any other...after all, even you noticed where the similarity really is. You just do not want to accept that it was the purpose of that example.

What? Ideally you are using as close example as you can find as to leave as little ambiguity as possible. That is, the two examples share as many similarities as possible. If you think racially motivated crime and the Satanist panic of the 80s share many similarities in the grand categorical sphere of "things over represented in the media", then I am going to assume you are lying because I don't believe you are that dumb.

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't know. Why should a baseless assertion not be countered by a baseless denial? It's kind of fitting IMHO. A statement in intself.

Because it is not a baseless assertion? Current media-induced moral panic about "hate crimes" is just as representative of reality as Satanic Panic of the 80s was (where presence of subject matter is over-exaggerated by mainstream media and politicians), while the generic SJW archetype is as intellectually vapid as such of the generic 80s evangelical was. Here is an excellent explanation of these similarities:

[The spartan]

Except people are actually killed by racists for racist reasons, but people aren't killed by Satanists for Satanic reasons.

[mongrel]

Delving deep into the link you provided, I found that the FBI only listed 5 incidents of murder that were considered hate crimes. It did not specify as to whether they were black on white or white on black.

Race crimes can be comitted by and upon any race and do not have to involve murder or mass murder. It's that simple.

I would also note that the designation of a hate crime is entirely subjective and at the discretion of the prosecutor. Such things as the "knock out game" are rarely, if ever, considered hate crimes even though they are directed at members of another race. It seems that's just considered as black kids having fun.

Gets less subjective if said perp posts his intentions on the web, does it not.

A much more telling graphic is the FBI statistics of black on white crime vs white on black crime:

https://www.ibtimes.com/white-black-...etween-2424598

Hardly an excuse for ISIS to blow people to bits or Nazis to shoot up blackk churches, is it?

And, btw, I guess you don't consider the Black Panthers a nationalist and racist hate group.

A moroinic point to make, they obvious are. Racism is not a black and white issue, it's the leading trait of dumbasses

Why should it get more coverage than, say, 5% rise in murders in Chicago, which produced even more dead? I'd argue that such news should be more important, as they represent significant trend, rather than one-time event. But media want to push some news over other for various reasons, and in process neglect or dowright abuse their duty as informers of public. And down that road lies this incident...?

Who cares? Such events sell papers. So does Kim Kardashian's arse, but I see no posts about that.

Just the fact that someone would have to hide his political affiliation due to media pressure like in this case is, for me, disturbing. I'm a proponent of freedom of speech to full extent.

I'm a proponent that people should live without fear of being killed for no reason other than spite. You would think Americans would have learned to be accustomed to the presence of black people and other minorities after 300 years or so.

And considering that Americans have elevated their politics to the status of religion, including the latter's irrationality, I dare to say it's not inconcievable that someone would be assaulted or even murdered over such hat. After all...I think there were cases of such violence, but I can't recall specifics right now. Someone here might dig that up though.
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No doubt. Trump's racism doesn't help. The hat is a symbol a signal , for example that one may accept the premise that all latin people are sub-human drug runners or rapists. I'm sure a historical re-enactment SS officer might receive a similar reaction at a Bar Mitzvah.

Yep.

This is interesting...you're not making a mistake of trying to fit me into the US republican/democrat narrative, are you? Because I'm not from USA and I don't hold with either party. Frankly, I despise both, but sometimes I find myself agreeing with one, sometimes with the other, but most frequently, with neither..

There is no recogniable Republican narritive,for now. That party is thoroughly penetrated by far-right , Islamophobic and Russian interests.

Edit: @the spartan and Muizer: Strawmen, strawmen. HH explained clearly that the similarity is in their huge media overrepresentation compared to reality. But of course, you did not read that, did you?

As Spartan says, no Satanist has ever killed someone in the name of their religion to my knowledge.

[swabian]

Except people are actually killed by racists for racist reasons, but people aren't killed by Satanists for Satanic reasons.

No, i think its actually very unlikely that someone really gets killed as a consequence of racism these days. The motives of people killing other people are far more primitive (like wealth to be robbed from others).

[mongrel]

No, i think its actually very unlikely that someone really gets killed as a consequence of racism these days. The motives of people killing other people are far more primitive (like wealth to be robbed from others).

So how much money was stolen from the slain members of the Emanuel AME Church and the Tree of Life Synagogue? Zero dollars , buggerall cents.

[swabian]

So how much money was stolen from the slain members of the Emanuel AME Church and the Tree of Life Synagogue? Zero dollars , buggerall cents.

I was talking about likelihoods, not certainties. You will also find people who kill for the sheer pleasure of it. They are very rare, though. In Europe and Northern-America that is.

[The spartan]

No, i think its actually very unlikely that someone really gets killed as a consequence of racism these days. The motives of people killing other people are far more primitive (like wealth to be robbed from others).

I actually think most murders are for personal reasons ("that bastard had it coming!") kind of thing than monetary gain, but that is besides the point. A significant number of people are killed for reasons rooted in bigotry or it's associated terrorism. Michael Page killed Sikhs in a temple for no other reason than they were Sikhs in a temple. He didn't know any of them personally, they were just stand-ins for his perception of their culture to him. And it isn't about "the pleasure" of doing, it is often presented as a response to threat. The perp feels like they "have" to do it or the "others" will destroy him and his people. Or perhaps that it is already a lost cause and it is only just to take down as many of the "aggressors" as they can before going down.

[95thrifleman]

I was talking about likelihoods, not certainties. You will also find people who kill for the sheer pleasure of it. They are very rare, though. In Europe and Northern-America that is.

Implying they are more common elsewhere?

[swabian]

I actually think most murders are for personal reasons ("that bastard had it coming!") kind of thing than monetary gain, but that is besides the point. A significant number of people are killed for reasons rooted in bigotry or it's associated terrorism. Michael Page killed Sikhs in a temple for no other reason than they were Sikhs in a temple. He didn't know any of them personally, they were just stand-ins for his perception of their culture to him. And it isn't about "the pleasure" of doing, it is often presented as a response to threat. The perp feels like they "have" to do it or the "others" will destroy him and his people. Or perhaps that it is already a lost cause and it is only just to take down as many of the "aggressors" as they can before going down.

Bigotry, hatred, sadism are aspects of human nature that occur everywhere. If something like this happens in a society where it is not to be expected, it is shocking. In other societies, this is much closer to everyday reality. Why is this so difficult to fathom?

[The spartan]

It's not difficult to fathom. It also isn't something that should just be tolerated.

[swabian]

It's not difficult to fathom. It also isn't something that should just be tolerated.

By whom? The denizens of said societies or by others? There is nothing that can be done to help them other than ruthless, bigoted, sadistic warfare. They have to by themselves evolve to this point where they can understand what is happening to themselves. It cannot be helped. All that can be done is to keep them out.

[The spartan]

By whom? The denizens of said societies or by others? There is nothing that can be done to help them other than ruthless, bigoted, sadistic warfare. They have to by themselves evolve to this point where they can understand what is happening to themselves. It cannot be helped. All that can be done is to keep them out.

By those who have the political power to make it otherwise. I am confused at what point you are trying to make; are you saying racially motivated violence can't be addressed by society? Or that it is acceptable or something?

[swabian]

By those who have the political power to make it otherwise. I am confused at what point you are trying to make; are you saying racially motivated violence can't be addressed by society? Or that it is acceptable or something?

I was saying that there are societies that cannot have a rightful representation in an "open" society. The point we were actually talking about was long lost on me, as it was on you, which i realize now as i check the thread-title. Let's stay calm and embrace the deletions.

[Heathen Hammer]

Except people are actually killed by racists for racist reasons, but people aren't killed by Satanists for Satanic reasons.

Satanic/occult-related murders were just as incidental as racist murders are today and both received widespread media exposure. Moral panic itself is created because of mainstream media and gullible target audience.

[mongrel]

Satanic/occult-related murders were just as incidental as racist murders are today and both received widespread media exposure. Moral panic itself is created because of mainstream media and gullible target audience.

The first little piggy rang. He wants his straw back.

I see no evidence of satanic/occult murders. Its not the 16th century.

[Aexodus]

Race crimes can be comitted by and upon any race and do not have to involve murder or mass murder. It's that simple.

Under police guidelines they don’t have to involve any kind of crime at all technically...

[Heathen Hammer]

The first little piggy rang. He wants his straw back.

I see no evidence of satanic/occult murders. Its not the 16th century.

There are plenty of examples of murder that was committed for occult/"Satanic" reasons, such cases were quite incidental, but like "hate crimes" of today, did not show themselves as massive trend, but because of disproportionate media exposure and fearmongering, they created a moral panic over the issue. The current moral panic over far-right was created in the exact same way, as Styx explains in the above-posted video. Modern SJW is strikingly similar to 80s evangelical, both blindly believe media and show fundamental incapability to think critically.

[The spartan]

There are plenty of examples of murder that was committed for occult/"Satanic" reasons, such cases were quite incidental, but like "hate crimes" of today, did not show themselves as massive trend, but because of disproportionate media exposure and fearmongering, they created a moral panic over the issue. The current moral panic over far-right was created in the exact same way, as Styx explains in the above-posted video. Modern SJW is strikingly similar to 80s evangelical, both blindly believe media and show fundamental incapability to think critically.

You referred specifically to the moral panic that was limited to 1980s in the US because that was when the media had interest in it (because viewers had interest in it). How many of those crimes happened around or shortly before the 1980s? Those would be the "inspiration" for such a moral panic, but there are basically none. What's more is that list doesn't exactly show perpetrators who were Satanists, there aren't actually very many of those at all, it shows weird, occultish, and crazy people that can only be described as "Satanists" in the broadest and most generous of definitions. The Manson family didn't murder Sharon Tate for Satan, or hold prayers to Satan or anything. Wade Michael Page was, very specifically, a white supremacist who engaged with other white supremacists and murdered people in a temple for, in his mind, the sake of white supremacy.

Look, I get you don't care about people being killed by white supremacists, it just doesn't interest you, but that doesn't make it a non-existent moral panic that the 1980s Satanist craze actually was.

[mongrel]

One of the examples given by Heathen Hammer is Slender Man, a fictitional internet character. Such dross.