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Thread: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

  1. #141
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Campylobacter jejuni View Post
    ..
    You do realise that the "war to end all wars" happened just a couple decades before? Everyone was involved in that war. No one wanted another war, especially not one like that. Even Germans were initially pissing their pants fearing another drawn out bloodshed. Who the would risk a war over the Rhineland? The French sure didn't, and they were the only ones who even had a real reason.
    Actually your remarks should be addressed to Mr. William L. Shirer (Chicago, February 23, 1904 – December 28, 1993, Lenox, Massachusetts ), he was there, based in Berlin from 1925 up to 1940 (when he was forced to leave the country) as correspondent for the Chicago Tribune and as radio reporter for CBS, actually what he wrote in his main work The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, about the whole sad story of the Rheinlandbesetzung on 1936, is slightly harsher than what I wrote. Anyway I fully agree with him, the French and British responsabilities in what happened in Europe between 1936 and 1939 are so huge and disgusting, that it's hard to find the words to describe them.

  2. #142
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    French and British responsabilities in what happened in Europe between 1936 and 1939 are so huge and disgusting, that it's hard to find the words to describe them.
    How do figure that?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Hindisght is always 20/20.

  4. #144
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    How do figure that?
    This:

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle
    .. the remilitarization of the Rhineland, .. in that scenery the German army was composed by 19 battalions facing100 French divisions, ..
    .. still any doubt as wargamer?

  5. #145
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    France was in political condition to act. I was deeply terrified on another war. I agree Hindsight is delightful but often unfair.

    "French and British responsabilities in what happened in Europe between 1936 and 1939 are so huge and disgusting, that it's hard to find the words to describe them. "

    It does not justify the above however.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Everyone would hate the french if they invaded defenseless Germany, and rightfully so.
    HATE SPEECH ISN'T REAL

  7. #147

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Up until the invasion of Poland, the British actualy had sympathy for Germany after the mess of the 20's and saw the annexations prior to Poland as legitimate re-balancing of German borders.

  8. #148
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Up until the invasion of Poland, the British actualy had sympathy for Germany after the mess of the 20's and saw the annexations prior to Poland as legitimate re-balancing of German borders.
    Well that is basically the problem with the OP. Nobody stopped Japan or Germany actively - until they together created a total war against a combination of nations they could not defeat. Its also possible nobody would have stopped them in the sense with some alteration in luck and success on the battle field, and had FDR not worked so hard to prioritize cooperation with the USSR its not that hard to see Germany and Japan achieve 'not loosing absolutely' and thus free to do as they will whatever settlement they got.

    -------

    .. still any doubt as wargamer?
    And then what march into the capital a depose Hitler. Pick who? Plunge Germany into more turmoil and maybe throw to the reds?. The simple fact is the World had largely come to the position that the the post war settlement against Germany had been to harsh. France would have isolated in its actions I think (although I suppose it could have got some eastern European countries on board with imposed map making in their favor, Poland for example)
    Last edited by conon394; February 18, 2019 at 08:42 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well that is basically the problem with the OP. Nobody stopped Japan or Germany actively - until they together created a total war against a combination of nations they could not defeat. Its also possible nobody would have stopped them in the sense with some alteration in luck and success on the battle field, and had FDR not worked so hard to prioritize cooperation with the USSR its not that hard to see Germany and Japan achieve 'not loosing absolutely' and thus free to do as they will whatever settlement they got.
    Had the Japanese knocked out the carriers at pearl, there is a good chance Japan could of forced the British Empire to a negotiated settlement before facing off against America.

  10. #150
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Had the Japanese knocked out the carriers at pearl, there is a good chance Japan could of forced the British Empire to a negotiated settlement before facing off against America.
    Maybe, but the US had more building and could have stripped the Atlantic. Unless IJA abandons the monumental waste of resources for no gain (in the war time frame) in China, Japan really cannot focus it resources properly to deliver the decisive blows that were needed against the US and UK and USSR. I'm guessing the US and UK just play rope a dope for a year longer.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Had the Japanese start the invasion of Southeastasia without the attack of Pearl Harbour and a previous declaration of war, the US Pacific Fleet would have run out of Pearl Harbor to intercept the invasion fleets. And with the numerical superiority of the japanese carriers you don't need to be a genius, what a desaster for the US battlefleet this would have been. You can't lift up a sunken battleship from 15000 feet.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; February 18, 2019 at 09:00 AM.
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  12. #152
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    Had the Japanese start the invasion of Southeastasia without the attack of Pearl Harbour and a previous declaration of war, the US Pacific Fleet would have run out of Pearl Harbor to intercept the invasion fleets. And with the numerical superiority of the japanese carriers you don't need to be a genius, what a desaster for the US battlefleet this would have been. You can't lift up a sunken battleship from 15000 feet.
    The best gamble would have been to just not attack the US. No matter the statements of FDR about Dutch territories, the appetite to save the colonial possessions of defeated state would be quite as galvanizing to the US population as a surprise attack or a declaration of war. Going to war with the rallying cry of making sure the Dutch can continue to oppress people even after they fail to defend their own home is not very catchy
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #153

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    The best gamble would have been to just not attack the US. No matter the statements of FDR about Dutch territories, the appetite to save the colonial possessions of defeated state would be quite as galvanizing to the US population as a surprise attack or a declaration of war. Going to war with the rallying cry of making sure the Dutch can continue to oppress people even after they fail to defend their own home is not very catchy
    Apathy and the fashion for isolationalism would of gone against FDR in that case.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    This argument is convincing. I guess the Japanese High Command was too obsessed with surprising attacks.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  15. #155

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harley_Quinn View Post
    This argument is convincing. I guess the Japanese High Command was too obsessed with surprising attacks.
    On paper it was a good idea and it worked well for the British at Taranto. Pearl was one of those operation that looked good from an immediate perspective but the high command did not properly understand the long term.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Japanese wartime tactics don't have anything to do with war crimes either.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 19, 2019 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
    HATE SPEECH ISN'T REAL

  17. #157
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    On paper it was a good idea and it worked well for the British at Taranto. Pearl was one of those operation that looked good from an immediate perspective but the high command did not properly understand the long term.
    I still think the bigger issue is the failure to walk back China. If you are going to fight the US and UK more or less alone. There was simply no short term strategic gain to had from the sink hole of resources that was China war. The manpower and shipping would have propelled Japan closer to India and Australia in 6-12 month window it had to land more punches at will. In the wider war even if China capitulated Japan would gain little but a broken country demanding a huge garrison that would have essentially zero impact on the US/UK/USSR war effort. Threatening Australia for real or India would have. Forcing the US and UK to divert more resources there and make Germany last impacts the critical point of the war could Germany defeat the USSR. How long could delay the second front before Stalin decides the western allies are just letting Russians pay the butcher bill. In this even if defeated a Japaneses attack on the USSR should have occurred and shutting down the Pacific LL route. I might also add Japan could have deployed its subs more effectively attacking US and UK shipping while also made better us of convoys and escorts to protect its own.

    Overall the IJN proved it was tactically excellent in 1941/42. But the High command was strategically inept.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #158
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Japanese war time tactics don't have anything to do with war crimes either.Mods, pls delete this.
    Oh now a clone thread (one of what 5 now) might a bit of interesting conversion
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #159

    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I still think the bigger issue is the failure to walk back China. If you are going to fight the US and UK more or less alone. There was simply no short term strategic gain to had from the sink hole of resources that was China war. The manpower and shipping would have propelled Japan closer to India and Australia in 6-12 month window it had to land more punches at will. In the wider war even if China capitulated Japan would gain little but a broken country demanding a huge garrison that would have essentially zero impact on the US/UK/USSR war effort. Threatening Australia for real or India would have. Forcing the US and UK to divert more resources there and make Germany last impacts the critical point of the war could Germany defeat the USSR. How long could delay the second front before Stalin decides the western allies are just letting Russians pay the butcher bill. In this even if defeated a Japaneses attack on the USSR should have occurred and shutting down the Pacific LL route. I might also add Japan could have deployed its subs more effectively attacking US and UK shipping while also made better us of convoys and escorts to protect its own.

    Overall the IJN proved it was tactically excellent in 1941/42. But the High command was strategically inept.
    Germany and Japan shared the same flaws in opening too many fronts.

    The British and Americans whee very careful, despite Stalin's insistence, not to open up too many fronts in this fashion.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Why was Germany and Japan stopped from doing evil but not America?

    Overall the IJN proved it was tactically excellent in 1941/42. But the High command was strategically inept.
    That had something to do with the better school education of japanese navy officers. They make more visitations in foreign countries too, Yamamoto for example. From such visitations the Imperial Japanses Marine had a better understanding of world policy and economics. Japanese Army Officers in the opposite stayed at home.

    The same problem had the imperial german army low educated prussian army officers, which didn't understood international policy.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


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