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Thread: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

  1. #401

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Last edited by Yayattasa; March 11, 2019 at 06:06 PM.


  2. #402
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    We don’t have any footage bar one truck.

    neither does the supreme court
    >Implying the Supreme court isn’t utterly corrupted.
    Last edited by Aexodus; March 10, 2019 at 09:25 PM.
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  3. #403
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallus View Post
    The thing is, Maduro is already in power. He doesn’t need people on the streets supporting him. He wants to keep things as they are, which means the fewer people on the streets, the better. Guaido on the other hand has nothing. The military doesn’t recognize his presidency, and neither does the supreme court. His only hope is a massive support of the people, and seems he doesn’t have that either.
    Uhhh why not? Him being in power is irrelevant in the case of the situation. You would think you would see large counter-protests to show the support Maduro has but you don't see any at all. Fewer people on the streets? He seems to have no problem with the counter-protesters that show up at opposition protests.

    Support of the people can only take you so far. Maduro still has some support himself along with the military. There's not much that can be done except using force which Guaido has not shown he is willing to do. The very protests and defections continue show that Guaido's support isn't lessening at all.

  4. #404
    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Support of the people can only take you so far. Maduro still has some support himself along with the military. There's not much that can be done except using force which Guaido has not shown he is willing to do. The very protests and defections continue show that Guaido's support isn't lessening at all.
    A dozen soldiers defecting is nothing. A few thousand people protesting is nothing. It's less than 0.1% of the population. He doesn't have enough support to paralyze the country with protests. Which means it's time to drop the revolutionary act and ing talk with Maduro.

  5. #405
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    After the blackout, the prelude to invasion.
    Secretary Pompeo on Twitter: "The U.S. will withdraw all remaining ...
    The U.S. will withdraw all remaining personnel... the presence of U.S. diplomatic staff at the embassy has become a constraint on U.S. policy
    Classic.
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  6. #406
    B. W.'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Left-wing conspiracy theorists thinking that the US sabotaged the Venezuelan electric grid need to know that the Venezuelan grid is an analog system and would have to be sabotaged onsite. The Russians are particularly adept at this because they have great experience doing it in the past assisting other communist regimes around the globe...make your own conclusions, but do it with the knowledge that the Russians are present in Venezuela.

  7. #407
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallus View Post
    A dozen soldiers defecting is nothing.
    More than a dozen including high-ranking officers.

    A few thousand people protesting is nothing. It's less than 0.1% of the population.
    The protests in Venezuela have involved far more than just a few thousand people and have been on-going for months.

    He doesn't have enough support to paralyze the country with protests.
    That makes no sense. The country is already in a humanitarian crisis. Why would he want to make that even worse paralyzing the country?

    Which means it's time to drop the revolutionary act and ing talk with Maduro.
    Sanctions are doing their work fine.

  8. #408
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    10% of the population has fled the country. The notion that Maduro is in any way popular is nothing short of insane.

    It’s quite clear that hatred of The West is blinding people to Maduro and Chavez’s mistakes.
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  9. #409
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    ... and would have to be sabotaged onsite
    onsite or not, this is sabotage.Too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence...
    ----
    I despise the autocratic features of the Venezuelan government. I find even more intolerable the imperialist model of the US-America's old obsession for invading countries, in the name of democracy, a much-abused term.

    My "twin soul" speaks for me. Ocasio- Cortez ,the dirty democratic socialist.

    Myself, just like anyone else, is absolutely concerned with the humanitarian crises that's happening, and I think it's important that any solution we have centers the Venezuelan people and centers the democracy of the Venezuelan people first. I am very concerned about U.S. interventionism in Venezuela, and I oppose it, especially when we talk about a figure like U.S. Special Envoy Elliott Abrams here. He's pled guilty to several crimes related to Iran-Contra. I am generally opposed to U.S. interventionism as a principle, but particularly under this administration and under his leadership I think it's a profound mistake.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 12, 2019 at 09:00 PM.
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  10. #410
    Mithradates's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    onsite or not, this is sabotage.Too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence...
    ...or simply just the inevitable product of corruption and incompetence, neglecting the proper maintenance of the nationalised public utilities.

    Maduro has blamed the largest blackout in Venezuela’s modern history on a cyber attack, orchestrated by the US.

    But one 40-year veteran of the Venezuelan state electric company, Corpoelec, told The Telegraph the blackouts were due to a lack of equipment, poor maintenance and staff fleeing the country.

    “We used to have the best electrical material available,” he said, attending a pro-Maduro march and only giving a false name, Antonio Canizales.

    “We had parts from Switzerland, Germany, the UK, America – the best. Now it’s cheap supplies from China which burn out, or recycled parts from Africa.

    “We used to do good projects; now we only patch things up. I think we all look back on when the company was in private hands and think it was a marvellous time.”
    Socialism.

  11. #411
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    onsite or not, this is sabotage.Too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence...
    ----
    I despise the autocratic features of the Venezuelan government. I find even more intolerable the imperialist model of the US-America's old obsession for invading countries, in the name of democracy, a much-abused term.

    My "twin soul" speaks for me. Ocasio- Cortez ,the dirty democratic socialist.
    So we should leave Venezuela alone and let it crash and burn harming neighbouring countries and in turn us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  12. #412

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    10% of the population has fled the country. The notion that Maduro is in any way popular is nothing short of insane.

    It’s quite clear that hatred of The West is blinding people to Maduro and Chavez’s mistakes.
    You don't have to hat the West or like Maduro to be cautious of interventionism, since powers that engage in it are doing so out of self-interest, rather then some sort of humanitarian excuse.

  13. #413
    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    So we should leave Venezuela alone and let it crash and burn harming neighbouring countries and in turn us?
    No, clearly the answer is to kindly bomb the out of them to end their misery.

    Everything the west has done in the past 2 months has only hurt Venezuela. If you wannt to help them, lift the sanctions. But you don't. You want a regime change. You want a puppet president.
    Last edited by Gallus; March 13, 2019 at 09:23 AM.

  14. #414
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Guiadó on Twitter, after the blackout, "in just four days, civilization has gone backwards one hundred years", and...calls for march on Caracas after deadly blackout crisis

    Guaido threatened to call on outside intervention “when the time comes,” pointing to the constitution, which authorizes “the use of a Venezuelan military mission abroad, or foreigners inside the country.”...“Intervention, intervention!” cried his supporters
    Really?...
    -----
    Stephane Dujarric, a spokesman for Guterres, conveyed the secretary general's reply to the Guaido's aid request in a public press briefing, Daily Press Briefing by the Office of the Spokesperson for the ... - UN.org

    Question: Thanks. On Venezuela, Steph, can you tell us if there has been a response to Mr. [Juan] Guaidó’s letter to the SG? And what is his reply to the request for more humanitarian involvement?
    Spokesman: He said the United Nations is ready to increase its activities in Venezuela in the areas of humanitarian assistance and development. However, he said that, for this, the United Nations needs the consent and the cooperation of the Government. The Secretary‑General again underscored that recognizing Governments is not for the Secretariat, but for Member States, and he noted that he respects decisions taken particularly by the General Assembly and the Security Council
    .
    More,
    Guterres meets Venezuela Foreign Minister, reiterates - UN News
    This is the third time that Minister Arreaza meets with the UN Secretary-General in just a few weeks.
    During their meeting at UN headquarters in New York, they discussed the situation in the country and in the region, and Mr. Guterres urged the Venezuelan authorities not to use lethal force against demonstrators.
    Amid deepening economic and political uncertainty, the UN has been supporting local institutions by providing medical kits for women and children, and aid teams are also delivering 100,000 treatments for severe acute malnutrition. Six temporary shelters have been set up in the western border states to house 1,600 people and offer them protection and information, as well as family kits containing food and clothing.
    The World Health Organization (WHO) confirmed that it is continuing to work with the authorities through the Pan-American Health Organization (PAHO), notably to prevent and control communicable and non-communicable diseases. Immunization campaigns have been carried out to halt the spread of measles and diphtheria.
    In a bid to help 3.6 million Venezuelans, including 2 million children, the UN humanitarian coordination office (OCHA) has appealed for nearly $110 million.



    And again,
    UN ready to rise above political fray and help Venezuelans based on "need and need alone"
    The ideal scenario is that humanitarian aid is provided, independent of any political or other considerations than the pure humanitarian, and that is based on need and need alone.
    -----

    EU, Mogherini: Solution cannot be imposed from the outside- EU at UN warns against military action in Venezuela - France 24

    Mogherini warned Tuesday that military action in Venezuela would be unacceptable.
    Addressing the Security Council, Mogherini said the standoff between President Nicolas Maduro and opposition leader Juan Guaido must be resolved though political, peaceful and democratic means.
    "We believe that no military development, from inside or outside of the country, would be acceptable. A solution cannot be, and should never be, imposed from the outside
    ------
    Sorry, I can't resist -Bernie Sanders, the next US President (*) is right, off course,
    I'm old enough to remember the war in Vietnam. I am very fearful of the United States continuing to do what it has done in past.
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    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Socialism
    Mithradates,the EU is not exactly socialist.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 13, 2019 at 10:49 AM.
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  15. #415
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    From your UN link:

    “We also know for instance that Ms. Delsa Solorzano, also a prominent member of opposition in Parliament in Venezuela, has been accused of having been involved in some kind of incitement to violence,” he added, “through what appears to be a doctored WhatsApp exchange. So she is accused as a result of that, she had to go into hiding for a couple of days.”
    The IPU official explained that its human rights panel had looked at cases of 60 opposition Members of Parliament in Venezuela who are facing “different kinds of intimidation”.
    More than 40 MPs had faced physical attacks and six had fled abroad, he said, noting also that the former Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly was still sheltering in the Chilean embassy in the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.
    Perhaps it in the best solution for outsiders to impose a solution, but....

    But a solution is needed if nearly all the opposition elected to the legislature are being harassed by the Maduro thugs. This is beginning to look not like a communist revolution but a revolution by the government against the people. Call it what you like, but this is not going to end well. Perhaps it is best that it at least ends quickly.

    And no, I am not suggesting that the USA should intervene. But provision of aid without any political considerations is simply provisioning aid in support of the existing government. Recognize this at least.

  16. #416
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    And no, I am not suggesting that the USA should intervene. But provision of aid without any political considerations is simply provisioning aid in support of the existing government. Recognize this at least.
    Well the reality is Iraq and century plus of selfish interventions in Latin America kinda make the US a poison pill.

    Like him or not Chavez was truly popular and his actions did redistribute the wealth of oil to the poor. That being said he was a train wreck. Dutch disease write large and little sustainable planing for the long term or the inevitable fluctuation in oil prices (I mean is that hard to look at Alaska and Norway and figure out how to use an oil boom effectively and w/o massive corruption). Maduro is a hack and its pretty clear just in it for himself. Maybe Spain or Morocco can find him a nice old estate to retire to. Let him and some key cronies live on whatever money they have tucked away in the you enter the name the place you hide your money today.
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  17. #417
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Maybe a beach front estate in Florida such as near Trump's pad could be his new home.

    In the news:

    A Venezuelan general under sanction by the United States denounced the government of President Nicolas Maduro on Monday as “inept and corrupt” after fleeing for neighbouring Colombia amid growing pressure on the isolated administration.

    The United States in 2018 sanctioned army General Carlos Rotondaro, former head of a state agency that provided medicine for chronic health conditions, as part of efforts to “highlight the economic mismanagement and endemic corruption” by Maduro’s government.

    “I’m not a traitor, I’m loyal to fatherland,” Rotondaro said in an interview with Colombian news station NTN24. “My oath (of military service) did not include defending a corrupt and inept government."

    Rotondaro said he had to leave Venezuela via illegal border crossings because his passport had been cancelled.
    Venezuela’s Information Ministry did not immediately reply to a request for comment.

    Since January, hundreds of Venezuelan military officers have deserted to seek refuge in Colombia and have disavowed Maduro’s government in favour of Juan Guaido, whom the opposition-run congress designated president in January.

    Rotondaro said he recognised Guaido as the country’s legitimate leader. “The population is clamouring for a change through free and fair elections,” he said.
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ve...KCN1R000M?il=0

    Read the full article at the link.


    So even a general under US sanctions now opposes Maduro. The tide may be starting to turn.

  18. #418
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    officers thrown out by maduro oppose him? imagine my surprise.

  19. #419
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Defection is not getting thrown out.

  20. #420
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Please tell me the Left doesn’t still support Maduro.
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