Page 1 of 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 302

Thread: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

  1. #1
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    14,671

    Default Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-ca...074124932.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    . MOSCOW/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Russia accused the United States of trying to usurp power in Venezuela and warned against U.S. military intervention there, putting it at odds with Washington and the EU which backed protests against one of Moscow's closest allies.

    Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself interim leader on Wednesday, winning the support of Washington and parts of Latin America and prompting Socialist President Nicolas Maduro, who has led the oil-rich nation since 2013, to sever diplomatic ties with the United States.

    The prospect of Maduro being ousted is a geopolitical and economic headache for Moscow which, alongside China, has become a creditor of last resort for Caracas, lending it billions of dollars as its economy implodes. Moscow has also provided support for its military and oil industry.

    Russia on Thursday accused Washington of stoking street protests and of trying to undermine Maduro, whom it called the country's legitimate president.

    "We consider the attempt to usurp sovereign authority in Venezuela to contradict and violate the basis and principles of international law," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

    He said Russia had not received a Venezuelan request for military help and declined to say how it would respond if it did. Maduro, who met President Vladimir Putin in Moscow in December, was the legitimate president, said Peskov.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry weighed in too, complaining that Washington was seeking to determine the fate of other nations by using a well-tried strategy of trying to depose an undesirable government.

    It told Washington not to intervene militarily, warning outside interference was the path to bloodshed. "We warn against such adventurism which is fraught with catastrophic consequences," it said.

    Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan offered support for Maduro too.

    "My brother Maduro! Stand tall, we stand by you!" presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin, writing on Twitter, quoted Erdogan as saying.

    China, a major lender to Caracas, also voiced its support for Maduro, saying it opposed outside interference in Venezuela and supported efforts to protect its independence and stability.

    EU SUPPORT FOR OPPOSITION

    The European Union, which has imposed sanctions on Venezuela and boycotted Maduro's swearing-in for a second term earlier this month, took a different tack.

    Although it stopped short of following Washington and recognizing Guaido as interim president, it called on the authorities in Venezuela to respect his "civil rights, freedom and safety" and appeared to support calls for a peaceful transition of power away from Maduro.

    "... The people of Venezuela have massively called for democracy and the possibility to freely determine their own destiny. These voices cannot be ignored," the 28-nation bloc said in a statement.

    French President Emmanuel Macron saluted the courage of Venezuelans marching for freedom and called Maduro's 2018 election victory illegal.

    A spokesman for British Prime Minister Theresa May said the election has been neither free nor fair and expressed support for Guaido as national assembly head.

    Spain's Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez planned to call Guaido after talks with Latin American leaders in Davos, a government source said on Thursday.

    (Additional reporting by Tom Balmforth, Maria Kiselyova, Christian Lowe and Maxim Rodionov in Moscow; Simon Carraud and Richard Lough in Paris, Christian Shepherd in Beijing, Ezgi Erkoyun in Istanbul and Belen Carreño and Paul Day in Madrid; Writing by Andrew Osborn; Editing by John Stonestreet)


    The situation in Venezuela worsens as Juan Guaido declaring himself interim President and receiving the recognition and support of the US, EU, and most of Latin America with the exception of Mexico and Bolivia. Some of this is not indicated in the article but I cannot seem to find the old source I had seen yesterday.

    Maduro meanwhile has received Russias, Chinas, and Turkey's support but that should come much of a surprise considering who they are themselves.

    Russia is warning against military intervention but I don't think the US is going to try that. I do think if this continues major sanctions will hit Venezuela from the EU and US. A civil war is not out of the question at this point.

    Maduro needs to go. His corrupt regime had caused enough hardship for the people of Venezuela.

  2. #2
    Paggers's Avatar Me.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Liversedge, West Yorkshire, UK
    Posts
    993

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    The situation in Venezuela worsens as Juan Guaido declaring himself interim President and receiving the recognition and support of the US, EU, and most of Latin America with the exception of Mexico and Bolivia. Some of this is not indicated in the article but I cannot seem to find the old source I had seen yesterday.Maduro meanwhile has received Russias, Chinas, and Turkey's support but that should come much of a surprise considering who they are themselves.Russia is warning against military intervention but I don't think the US is going to try that. I do think if this continues major sanctions will hit Venezuela from the EU and US. A civil war is not out of the question at this point.Maduro needs to go. His corrupt regime had caused enough hardship for the people of Venezuela.
    There's some additional detail in the below link which fills in some of the detail @Vanoi mentioned.BTW, I couldn't agree more. I had to look twice when I saw the inflation numbers.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46989279
    Last edited by Paggers; January 24, 2019 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Forgot the link...D'oh!
    Under the patronage of Noble Savage Citizen of the Broad Acres.
    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    What PC culture exists in West Yorkshire, for pity's sake? Its the least PC place in the UK, if not the planet.

  3. #3
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,146

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    You just beat me on a post Vanoi I was wondering why nobody had mentioned this yet.

    Maduro needs to go. His corrupt regime had caused enough hardship for the people of Venezuela
    True, its clear the house of cards he inherited from Chavez was was one just built on high oil prices and no real foundations were ever built. That being said its hard to see US involvement playing out well. That Mexico stepped away from the US and Canada is also notable. In any case Bolton has been dying to bomb something, why not Maduro? A short victorious military action to distract from the shutdown.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Maduro’s economic mismanagement and authoritarian regime aside... you cannot simply declare a President without an election. The 2018 election that resulted in a landslide victory for Maduro was declared illegitimate. Allegations of election fraud were not backed up by substantial evidence. As far as I can tell, Maduro’s victory was assured by the low turnout.

    In short, I find the actions in Venezuela to be undemocratic and US acceptance, as well as many other countries of the world, of the interim President is setting a bad precedent for future events. Maduro still has a lot of support around the country, we’ll see where the military falls in on this.

  5. #5
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    14,671

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    You just beat me on a post Vanoi I was wondering why nobody had mentioned this yet.



    True, its clear the house of cards he inherited from Chavez was was one just built on high oil prices and no real foundations were ever built. That being said its hard to see US involvement playing out well. That Mexico stepped away from the US and Canada is also notable. In any case Bolton has been dying to bomb something, why not Maduro? A short victorious military action to distract from the shutdown.
    I think Mexico is honestly just trying to stay neutral in this regard. They don't necessarily support Maduro but they aren't taking the position the US has about him.

    Maduro did inherit a bad hand, but he also is just an incredibly poor and corrupt leader. Any military action wouldn't be short at least from my opinion. It could also embolden the support for Maduro at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Maduro’s economic mismanagement and authoritarian regime aside... you cannot simply declare a President without an election. The 2018 election that resulted in a landslide victory for Maduro was declared illegitimate. Allegations of election fraud were not backed up by substantial evidence. As far as I can tell, Maduro’s victory was assured by the low turnout.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-44187838

    The election was boycotted but Maduro was also accused of giving state-run food cards to people amid the food shortage he caused obviously to vote for him. He has also jailed political opponents. Juan Guaido himself is in exile if I am not mistaken.

    It's hard to call this legitimate considering this isn't the first time he has been accused of rigging g elections.

    In short, I find the actions in Venezuela to be undemocratic and US acceptance, as well as many other countries of the world, of the interim President is setting a bad precedent for future events. Maduro still has a lot of support around the country, we’ll see where the military falls in on this.
    I understand this position but Maduro kind of caused this himself.
    Last edited by Vanoi; January 24, 2019 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #6
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    5,163

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    I hear inflation is predicted to increase to 10 million percent? Where did Venezuela go wrong?

    I’m also disappointed by the support from the UK.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3608441.html
    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d...itarian-regime
    https://reaction.life/ten-times-corb...ros-venezuela/

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Maduro’s economic mismanagement and authoritarian regime aside... you cannot simply declare a President without an election. The 2018 election that resulted in a landslide victory for Maduro was declared illegitimate. Allegations of election fraud were not backed up by substantial evidence. As far as I can tell, Maduro’s victory was assured by the low turnout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post

    In short, I find the actions in Venezuela to be undemocratic and US acceptance, as well as many other countries of the world, of the interim President is setting a bad precedent for future events. Maduro still has a lot of support around the country, we’ll see where the military falls in on this.


    Maduro’s regime wasn’t legitimate in the first place.

    Edit: here’s Fox, but I know I saw 10,000,000 inflation predicted on BBC. Considering I don't watch Fox lol

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3blcQLmTEg
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 24, 2019 at 10:44 AM.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
    Check out the Post of the Fortnight Competition!
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    https://sputniknews.com/latam/201901...-armed-forces/

    The Defense Minister of Venezuela wont accept the Interim President he said via Twitter. Of course this is Sputnik so I wont hold my breather but lets see if anyone else reports this and who else declares their allegiance.

  8. #8
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
    Civitate Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,127

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    I'm not very optimist about the outcome of these events. Even if the opposition succeeds in overthrowing Maduro, no improvement of the living conditions will occur. Oil prices will remain low and corrupt officials will either maintain their lucrative positions (as a bribe to convince them to change sides) or they will simply be replaced by their equally ruthless colleagues, whose only difference would be their party affiliation. Furthermore, social security will probably be the main target of Guaido, a move that will neither save the Venezuelan treasury nor gain the approval of the poorest classes. The latter, in combination to the existing economic disaster, will probably lead into even more violent riots than those experienced since 2014. Honestly, the only important change would be a normalisation of Caracas' foreign relations with the European Union and the United States, by moving away from Havana, Moscow and Tehran, and most crucially, by canceling the nationalisation initiatives of his predecessors. After all, this is why Washington has traditionally been so hostile towards Chavez (before it was cool) and not its supposed concern about democracy and human rights. If foreign investors return, the consequences will vary from a small decrease of unemployment and a respective increase of productivity, to an unequal exploitation of natural resources and an agrarian catastrophe, including the formation of a mob of disgruntled and suddenly impoverished peasants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    In short, I find the actions in Venezuela to be undemocratic and US acceptance, as well as many other countries of the world, of the interim President is setting a bad precedent for future events. Maduro still has a lot of support around the country, we’ll see where the military falls in on this.
    I agree, the situation isn't as simple as some superificial and ideologically orientated analysis suggest, especially when the opposition copies the government's authoritarian tactics. When the protests began, the class divide was undeniable. The lower-classes had no reason to fight against a government responsible for decisively empowering the social welfare system and improving their quality of life, while the demonstrators' attempt to approach them failed. A failure that also marked the initial defeat of the anti-Maduro movement. Nowadays, a portion of poor people has also joined the riots, because corruption, cronyism and mismanagement persist, despite the president's promises, but Maduro can still trust the massive support he can receive from the poorest segments of the Venezuelan society. Ironically, the elite is also less inclined to "rebel', as its financial power has not been significantly curtailed, so it's the middle-class that is mostly responsible for the unrest. Their purchase power has collapsed, while they hardly benefited from the government aid during the Chavez and Maduro eras. The role of the military is a bit more dubious, as both Chavez and Maduro gained the loyalty of the officer corps by integrating it to positions of economic and political power. Inevitably, the military elite quickly excelled in corruption and mismanagement, directly contributing to the inflation rise and lack of essential goods (there were even reports of ships not being allowed to distribute their cargoes, until the prices multiplied). In my opinion, the unconditional surrender of government institutions (misleadingly labelled by right-wing medias as socialism) to greedy colonels and generals has been the regime's gravest mistake. The army's loyalty may have been guaranteed, but it also provoked a remarkable capital flight, as well as a dramatic rise of corruption in a poor country already plagued by nepotism and embezzlement.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I hear inflation is predicted to increase to 10 million percent? Where did Venezuela go wrong?

    I’m also disappointed by the support from the UK.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3608441.html
    https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d...itarian-regime
    https://reaction.life/ten-times-corb...ros-venezuela/
    Venezuela is essentially a petro-currency. It's economy is based on the price of oil. When the price of oil collapsed, so did it's foreign currency reserves. Then there are a lot of price controls which put natural constraints on the economy. Price controls are not necessarily catastrophic, and they can function well for their intended purpose during the "good times". However, they can quickly and massively exacerbate the situation when the economy is in crisis.



    Maduro’s regime wasn’t legitimate in the first place.

    Edit: here’s Fox, but I know I saw 10,000,000 inflation predicted on BBC. Considering I don't watch Fox lol
    You say it with such confidence. I ask, what makes the election legitimate or illegitimate?


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-44187838

    The election was boycotted but Maduro was also accused of giving state-run food cards to people amid the food shortage he caused obviously to vote for him. He has also jailed political opponents. Juan Guaido himself is in exile if I am not mistaken.

    It's hard to call this legitimate considering this isn't the first time he has been accused of rigging g elections.


    I understand this position but Maduro kind of caused this himself.
    That's my issue, these are accusations. The boycott itself does not invalidate the election results. If you ask me, the opposition did it to themselves. If Republicans boycott the 2020 election, would that fact alone make the election illegitimate? Of course not. However, my issue is that upon simply googling information for the 2018 Venezuelan election, I did not find a comprehensive account of any election fraud. At least no more than usual. Especially in light of headlines like these. It's hard for me not to see this as geopolitically connected. I'm not going to make any CIA/USA conspiracy accusations here... but suffice to say the United States is not a friend of Chavez or Maduro regimes. Neither the U.S. or U.S. allies in Europe have any incentive in legitimizing the Maduro government.

    But yes, Maduro and Chavez have certainly created this mess. They seized power through populist measures, and cemented their power by corrupting the political and military establishment. This certainly makes objective judgement of the situation difficult. However, the opposition simply declared a President without process whatsoever. This is a mess and this can very quickly spiral out of control and into violence. Who the legitimate President of Venezuela is seems to be a moot and irrelevant point. The only important thing is to simply avoid a civil war. I don't know anything about this Guaido guy. So I don't know which leader would be better for the future of Venezuela. What I can say, is that the leadership will have a challenging political and economic crisis to resolve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    I'm not very optimist about the outcome of these events. Even if the opposition succeeds in overthrowing Maduro, no improvement of the living conditions will occur. Oil prices will remain low and corrupt officials will either maintain their lucrative positions (as a bribe to convince them to change sides) or they will simply be replaced by their equally ruthless colleagues, whose only difference would be their party affiliation. Furthermore, social security will probably be the main target of Guaido, a move that will neither save the Venezuelan treasury nor gain the approval of the poorest classes. The latter, in combination to the existing economic disaster, will probably lead into even more violent riots than those experienced since 2014. Honestly, the only important change would be a normalisation of Caracas' foreign relations with the European Union and the United States, by moving away from Havana, Moscow and Tehran, and most crucially, by canceling the nationalisation initiatives of his predecessors. After all, this is why Washington has traditionally been so hostile towards Chavez (before it was cool) and not its supposed concern about democracy and human rights. If foreign investors return, the consequences will vary from a small decrease of unemployment and a respective increase of productivity, to an unequal exploitation of natural resources and an agrarian catastrophe, including the formation of a mob of disgruntled and suddenly impoverished peasants.
    This is a very astute observation from you Abdul. As always. Becoming a U.S. ally can greatly benefit Venezuela in form of USAID, economic assistance, and probably most importantly, the end of political/economic alienation from the rest of the world. On the other hand, US has a history of backing governments that do the minimum required to maintain order while strengthening military ties and assistance to preserve power and quash any future unrest. All things that you've eloquently summarized. One question I have regarding all of this.

    How do Venezuelan citizens feel about U.S? After all, should Guaido prevail, what will be the extent of military cooperation with the US and will the people accept it?


    I agree, the situation isn't as simple as some superificial and ideologically orientated analysis suggest, especially when the opposition copies the government's authoritarian tactics. When the protests began, the class divide was undeniable. The lower-classes had no reason to fight against a government responsible for decisively empowering the social welfare system and improving their quality of life, while the demonstrators' attempt to approach them failed. A failure that also marked the initial defeat of the anti-Maduro movement. Nowadays, a portion of poor people has also joined the riots, because corruption, cronyism and mismanagement persist, despite the president's promises, but Maduro can still trust the massive support he can receive from the poorest segments of the Venezuelan society. Ironically, the elite is also less inclined to "rebel', as its financial power has not been significantly curtailed, so it's the middle-class that is mostly responsible for the unrest. Their purchase power has collapsed, while they hardly benefited from the government aid during the Chavez and Maduro eras. The role of the military is a bit more dubious, as both Chavez and Maduro gained the loyalty of the officer corps by integrating it to positions of economic and political power. Inevitably, the military elite quickly excelled in corruption and mismanagement, directly contributing to the inflation rise and lack of essential goods (there were even reports of ships not being allowed to distribute their cargoes, until the prices multiplied). In my opinion, the unconditional surrender of government institutions (misleadingly labelled by right-wing medias as socialism) to greedy colonels and generals has been the regime's gravest mistake. The army's loyalty may have been guaranteed, but it also provoked a remarkable capital flight, as well as a dramatic rise of corruption in a poor country already plagued by nepotism and embezzlement.
    Not much to say, other than I enjoyed reading through this summary and the links involved.

  10. #10
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    5,163

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    You say it with such confidence. I ask, what makes the election legitimate or illegitimate?
    I don’t actually know the specifics, but I do know the entire West has denounced the 2018 election.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
    Check out the Post of the Fortnight Competition!
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  11. #11
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    14,671

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    That's my issue, these are accusations. The boycott itself does not invalidate the election results. If you ask me, the opposition did it to themselves. If Republicans boycott the 2020 election, would that fact alone make the election illegitimate? Of course not. However, my issue is that upon simply googling information for the 2018 Venezuelan election, I did not find a comprehensive account of any election fraud.
    I mentioned the boycott to explain the low voter turnout. Maduro jailing political opponents isn't an accusation though. He's known for that. If the Republicans were jailing Democrat opponents and giving people government benefits in exchange for votes then I don't think it would be legitimate at all. However I have to agree with you on saying there isn't a lot of proof.

    At least no more than usual. Especially in light of headlines like these. It's hard for me not to see this as geopolitically connected. I'm not going to make any CIA/USA conspiracy accusations here... but suffice to say the United States is not a friend of Chavez or Maduro regimes. Neither the U.S. or U.S. allies in Europe have any incentive in legitimizing the Maduro government.
    I agree the US and EU have all the motive to simply oppose him over geopolitical reasons. Yet you have South American nation's as well confirming Maduro and supporting the opposition.

    But yes, Maduro and Chavez have certainly created this mess. They seized power through populist measures, and cemented their power by corrupting the political and military establishment. This certainly makes objective judgement of the situation difficult. However, the opposition simply declared a President without process whatsoever. This is a mess and this can very quickly spiral out of control and into violence. Who the legitimate President of Venezuela is seems to be a moot and irrelevant point. The only important thing is to simply avoid a civil war. I don't know anything about this Guaido guy. So I don't know which leader would be better for the future of Venezuela. What I can say, is that the leadership will have a challenging political and economic crisis to resolve.
    Guadio is the head of the National Assembly. Venezuela's legitimate but defunct parliment. Other than that I don't know much about him either.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I don’t actually know the specifics, but I do know the entire West has denounced the 2018 election.
    That's part of the issue. Here's an article scrutinizing the coverage regarding Maduro's 2018 election win. Here'a media bias report of the article publisher. I am questioning the accusations regarding the illegitimacy accusations.

    Yes, the election was far from perfect, it had issues, but where exactly is evidence that Maduro cheated? Fair enough, not recognizing the election result. That's not really my issue. My main issue is with recognizing a person who did not go through any kind of Democratic process, as the President of Venezuela. Where exactly is the justification for Guaido? Because we "like" him? The Western opposition to Maduro's government is undoubtedly politically motivated, and their acceptance of Guaido casts a dubious outlook on their accusations of illegitimacy on Maduro's 2018 election win. It's a double standard and hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I mentioned the boycott to explain the low voter turnout. Maduro jailing political opponents isn't an accusation though. He's known for that. If the Republicans were jailing Democrat opponents and giving people government benefits in exchange for votes then I don't think it would be legitimate at all. However I have to agree with you on saying there isn't a lot of proof.


    I agree the US and EU have all the motive to simply oppose him over geopolitical reasons. Yet you have South American nation's as well confirming Maduro and supporting the opposition.


    Guadio is the head of the National Assembly. Venezuela's legitimate but defunct parliment. Other than that I don't know much about him either.
    In regards to Maduro jailing opponents, I believe the arrest of major Venezuelan opposition leaders was done over the yeas, not immediately preceding the election. Obviously, that's not a good look either way. I only googled the facts of the 2018 Venezuelan election as soon as I started seeing the headlines and reading articles regarding Venezuela. So I'm by no means an expert. Having said that, I'm really interested in the facts of these events seeing as how this is a very complicated issue.

    I'm not a fan of the way Maduro runs the country, at all. However, it's hard for me to justify Western actions regarding this country and it's hard for me to justify the legitimacy of Guaido. Especially if we consider that this political move can potentially move the country into civil war. I think this was irresponsible.
    Last edited by Sukiyama; January 24, 2019 at 12:36 PM.

  13. #13
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    10,224

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Some considerations,
    - US doesn't give a about the human rights in Venezuela, the country with the largest reserves of oil in the world. it's all about its s own geostrategic agenda in the region, and to seize Venezuelan oil assets.
    - Russia already warned US against a military intervention.Two Russian strategic bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons landed in Venezuela last month.
    - China warned the US not to intervene in support of the opposition.
    ---
    It's worth to note that Trump wants to divide the EU, and yet, Gaudio's key allies are the US and the EU.

    - In my opinion, Maduro needs to go. In fact,the parliamentary assembly of the country have a democratic mandate from the people.
    BUT,
    -The decision to depose the Saudi Arabia Venezuelan "prince" belongs to the Venezuelan people (new elections, a revolution, whatever).

    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I'm not a fan of the way Maduro runs the country, at all. However, it's hard for me to justify Western actions regarding this country and it's hard for me to justify the legitimacy of Guaido. Especially if we consider that this political move can potentially move the country into civil war. I think this was irresponsible.
    Precisely
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  14. #14
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
    Civitate Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,127

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Another "benefit" I forgot to mention in my first comment is that Venezuela under Guaido will at least profit from the cooperation of the country's elite, which is currently undermining the efforts of the Maduro administration to save the economy. Most western journalists dismiss the claims of Caracas about Venezuelan magnates conspiring against the "popular regime" as either paranoid or insincere, but the truth is that several magnates, although Maduro is indeed exaggerating the impact of their activities, are indeed lobbying against the state, by exercising pressure upon international institutions or by using their resources and power to worsen the country's financial condition. The reason for this animosity is that the establishment traditionally cooperated with Chavez' conservative predecessors, so their interests were severely threatened, when the social-democratic party won the elections. Chavez punished them by reinforcing state interventionism in the economy and nationalising some foreign or native-invested industries, a move which further encouraged them to associate themselves with the opposition. That policy was hardly socialist, as the circle of Maduro and military officers gained most of the fruits, but it also alienated powerful families and interests. If the previous "regime" is restored, then they have legitimate hopes of recovering their sorely missed dominance in Venezuelan economy and politics. This could gradually stabilise Venezuela and slightly reduce corruption, but not in any remarkable level, capable of saving the society from the imminent humanitarian disaster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    How do Venezuelan citizens feel about U.S? After all, should Guaido prevail, what will be the extent of military cooperation with the US and will the people accept it?
    According to Pew, the United States are mostly viewed positively, but that heavily depends on political affiliation, with the left being the most anti-American. I suppose the Venezuelan example confirms the rule of Latin America, where the right views Washington as the pillar of the current profitable system against the subverting efforts of USSR-funded communists, while the leftists consider the U.S. as the flagship of modern colonialism, with multinational corporations exploiting the local resources and workforce under the protection of puppet dictators. The fact that the American intelligence services were directly involved in the failed coup against Chavez didn't contribute to fixing the global power's shaky reputation. By the way, I really liked your article about the dubious reporting of Venezuelan domestic affairs from the mainstream media. In my opinion, the core of the problem is that the press is too eager to adopt a "patriotic stance" (by uncritically swallowing the claims of government officials from Europe and America), while it is also unacceptably dependent, due to insufficient budget or even genuine incompetence, on biased sources, more interested in promoting their agenda than fighting against propaganda.

  15. #15
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    10,224

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    United States are mostly viewed positively, but that heavily depends on political affiliation..,while the leftists consider the U.S. as the flagship of modern colonialism, with multinational corporations exploiting the local resources and workforce under the protection of puppet dictators. The fact that the American intelligence services were directly involved in the failed coup against Chavez didn't contribute to fixing the global power's shaky reputation.
    Venezuela under Guaido will at least profit from the cooperation of the country's elite, which is currently undermining the efforts of the Maduro administration to save the economy.
    My questions is, what's your opinion? what's your take on it? should the US intervene?
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 24, 2019 at 01:47 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  16. #16
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    14,671

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    That's part of the issue. Here's an article scrutinizing the coverage regarding Maduro's 2018 election win. Here'a media bias report of the article publisher. I am questioning the accusations regarding the illegitimacy accusations.

    Yes, the election was far from perfect, it had issues, but where exactly is evidence that Maduro cheated? Fair enough, not recognizing the election result. That's not really my issue. My main issue is with recognizing a person who did not go through any kind of Democratic process, as the President of Venezuela. Where exactly is the justification for Guaido? Because we "like" him? The Western opposition to Maduro's government is undoubtedly politically motivated, and their acceptance of Guaido casts a dubious outlook on their accusations of illegitimacy on Maduro's 2018 election win. It's a double standard and hypocrisy.



    In regards to Maduro jailing opponents, I believe the arrest of major Venezuelan opposition leaders was done over the yeas, not immediately preceding the election. Obviously, that's not a good look either way. I only googled the facts of the 2018 Venezuelan election as soon as I started seeing the headlines and reading articles regarding Venezuela. So I'm by no means an expert. Having said that, I'm really interested in the facts of these events seeing as how this is a very complicated issue.

    I'm not a fan of the way Maduro runs the country, at all. However, it's hard for me to justify Western actions regarding this country and it's hard for me to justify the legitimacy of Guaido. Especially if we consider that this political move can potentially move the country into civil war. I think this was irresponsible.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/showdown-...050341338.html

    Sputnik was right as it seems regarding military support for Maduro.

    This article gives a little bit more information about the situation. It mentions during the election Maduro prevented serveral popular opposition candidates from running hence why the claims of it being illegimate persist besides the other accusations

    It also mentions Guaido claiming the Venezuelan Constitution and him being the head of the National Assembly allow him to declare himself interim President. I don't have knowledge of the Venezuelan Constitution so I don't know if that's true.

    At this rate I think civil war could be very possible.

  17. #17
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    5,163

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    and to seize Venezuelan oil assets.
    Venezuela seized American oil, not the other way round.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
    Check out the Post of the Fortnight Competition!
    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    - US doesn't give a about the human rights in Venezuela, the country with the largest reserves of oil in the world. it's all about its s own geostrategic agenda in the region, and to seize Venezuelan oil assets.
    - Russia already warned US against a military intervention.Two Russian strategic bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons landed in Venezuela last month.
    - China warned the US not to intervene in support of the opposition.
    ---
    It's worth to note that Trump wants to divide the EU, and yet, Gaudio's key allies are the US and the EU.

    - In my opinion, Maduro needs to go. In fact,the parliamentary assembly of the country have a democratic mandate from the people.
    BUT,
    -The decision to depose the Saudi Arabia Venezuelan "prince" belongs to the Venezuelan people (new elections, a revolution, whatever).
    There seems to be a revolution in progress. China hasn't "warned the US" it's simply stated that it would oppose foreign intervention and wants a peaceful resolution within Venezuela. The spokesman equivocated and stopped short of doing so when asked if China actually supported the current president: only the two leaders of the Brotherhood of Dictators, Putin and Erdoğan, have actually shouted ¡Viva Maduro! seeing him rightly as a fellow capo in trouble. "Strategic bombers" have been obsolete for 50 years all the same and Putin is unlikely to have Russia strap on a suicide vest in order to try to keep him in power. It's not like they need the oil.
    Resident Language Geek
    Baseless Assertions on the Celts Since 1996

  19. #19

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    America should force a regime change, that always works out well, right?

  20. #20
    Vanoi's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    14,671

    Default Re: Deteriorating Situation in Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    America should force a regime change, that always works out well, right?
    There's not one single indication that the US is planning to conduct regime change in Venezuela. Instead of a poor one-liner why not offer an alternative? What do you think should be done?

Page 1 of 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •