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Thread: The Case for Impeachment

  1. #1
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default The Case for Impeachment

    Impeaching Donald Trump is something even most Democrats don't want to consider at the moment. Yet an interesting article in the Atlantic suggests that there is enough evidence to begin exactly that process. Not because impeachment is likely to succeed, but because the process of impeachment itself, because of its discovery and examination of evidence, regardless of the result, will aid the American people and their democracy, by bringing 'the debate out of the court of public opinion and into Congress, where it belongs.'

    The electorate passes judgment on its presidents and their shortcomings every four years. But the Framers were concerned that a president could abuse his authority in ways that would undermine the democratic process and that could not wait to be addressed. So they created a mechanism for considering whether a president is subverting the rule of law or pursuing his own self-interest at the expense of the general welfare—in short, whether his continued tenure in office poses a threat to the republic. This mechanism is impeachment.

    Trump’s actions during his first two years in office clearly meet, and exceed, the criteria to trigger this fail-safe. But the United States has grown wary of impeachment. The history of its application is widely misunderstood, leading Americans to mistake it for a dangerous threat to the constitutional order.

    That is precisely backwards. It is absurd to suggest that the Constitution would delineate a mechanism too potent to ever actually be employed. Impeachment, in fact, is a vital protection against the dangers a president like Trump poses. And, crucially, many of its benefits—to the political health of the country, to the stability of the constitutional system—accrue irrespective of its ultimate result. Impeachment is a process, not an outcome, a rule-bound procedure for investigating a president, considering evidence, formulating charges, and deciding whether to continue on to trial.

    The fight over whether Trump should be removed from office is already raging, and distorting everything it touches. Activists are radicalizing in opposition to a president they regard as dangerous. Within the government, unelected bureaucrats who believe the president is acting unlawfully are disregarding his orders, or working to subvert his agenda. By denying the debate its proper outlet, Congress has succeeded only in intensifying its pressures. And by declining to tackle the question head-on, it has deprived itself of its primary means of reining in the chief executive.

    With a newly seated Democratic majority, the House of Representatives can no longer dodge its constitutional duty. It must immediately open a formal impeachment inquiry into President Trump, and bring the debate out of the court of public opinion and into Congress, where it belongs.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-trump/580468/

    To clarify, I don't have an opinion on whether Trump should be impeached. Before reading this article, it didn't seem like the right thing to do. But it's an interesting read, examining the historic purpose of impeachment and examples. I am/was of the opinion that any impeachment should occur after Mueller's report - but the article makes the argument that:

    "Congress can’t outsource its responsibilities to federal prosecutors. No one knows when Mueller’s report will arrive, what form it will take, or what it will say. Even if Mueller alleges criminal misconduct on the part of the president, under Justice Department guidelines, a sitting president cannot be indicted. Nor will the host of congressional hearings fulfill that branch’s obligations. The view they will offer of his conduct will be both limited and scattershot, focused on discrete acts. Only by authorizing a dedicated impeachment inquiry can the House begin to assemble disparate allegations into a coherent picture, forcing lawmakers to consider both whether specific charges are true and whether the president’s abuses of his power justify his removal.'

    'Waiting also presents dangers. With every passing day, Trump further undermines our national commitment to America’s ideals. And impeachment is a long process. Typically, the House first votes to open an investigation—the hearings would likely take months—then votes again to present charges to the Senate. By delaying the start of the process, in the hope that even clearer evidence will be produced by Mueller or some other source, lawmakers are delaying its eventual conclusion. Better to forge ahead, weighing what is already known and incorporating additional material as it becomes available."


    I thought this example from Nixon's impeachment was especially valid in supporting the argument that impeachment may enlighten the public further:

    "The process of impeachment can also surface evidence. The House Judiciary Committee began its impeachment hearings against Nixon in October 1973, well before the president’s complicity in the Watergate cover-up was clear. In April 1974, as part of those hearings, the Judiciary Committee subpoenaed 42 White House tapes. In response, Nixon released transcripts of the tapes that were so obviously expurgated that a district judge approved a subpoena from the special prosecutor for the tapes themselves. That demand, in turn, eventually produced the so-called smoking-gun tape, a recording of Nixon authorizing the CIA to shut down the FBI’s investigation into Watergate. The evidence that drove Nixon from office thus emerged as a consequence of the impeachment hearings; it did not spark them. The only way for the House to find out what Trump has actually done, and whether his conduct warrants removal, is to start asking."


    What are your thoughts? Is there enough there to begin the process of impeaching President Trump? Are the arguments presented valid? And hypothetically, based on your judgment, has Trump done enough to warrant a successful impeachment?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Nah, this is just harmful to America. It would increase polarization and inflame the country. No good can come of it. The Trump cult is bad enough already, last thing we need now is more fuel on the fire. Even most anti-Trump Republicans would side with him against a perceived Democratic attack. Democrats should try to govern instead of constantly trying to demonize and delegitimize their opponents.
    Last edited by Prodromos; January 17, 2019 at 10:38 AM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    When they think it's worth investigating directly, that's when I'll worry about it.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Legend View Post
    Nah, this is just harmful to America. It would increase polarization and inflame the country. No good can come of it. The Trump cult is bad enough already, last thing we need now is more fuel on the fire. Even most anti-Trump Republicans would side with him against a perceived Democratic attack. Democrats should try to govern instead of constantly trying to demonize and delegitimize their opponents.
    As a non-Yank I think this is persuasive. The attempts to delegitimise Obama were IMHO almost treasonous, they diminished US prestige internationally for tiny incremental domestic gains. As bad as Trump is, and as bad as he may be, the majority of stuff flung at him is of a similar inane level, bordering on treason and trashing confidence in the entire system of government for a possible points gain in the next election cycle. The hypocrisy of red blue manoeuvres around SCOTUS appointments is part of this sickening mess, with their relative roles reversed the parties now run plays they decried less than four years ago.

    The argument for impeaching now seems to be "impeach the President without sufficient evidence because it will build confidence in institutions" is not sound. Have I strawmanned that beyond recognition?

    Trump does a lot of dumb things, but the welter of confected outrage means when there is a serious blunder it gets drowned in the "but he's soooo orange" criticism. I suspect its because the real problems with Trump are the structural faults that let him in, and they're mostly happy with the Swamp. Having a rotten egg like Trump in power just reveals how rotten Washington is, they want to get rid of the symptom, not the cause.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The argument for impeaching now seems to be "impeach the President without sufficient evidence because it will build confidence in institutions" is not sound. Have I strawmanned that beyond recognition?
    The argument is actually, "Let investigations complete" as opposed to "Start a specialized congressional investigation to spite the er." But you can believe the vocal minority all you want. It did the Republicans a lot of good locking Clinton up after all.

    Oh wait.
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    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    The Impeach Trump mantra is simply more HRC supporters wanting to oppose in any way and in any manner Trump because he won by the rules and not by getting over 50% of the national vote. For the House of Representatives to take this on is a bit like tilting at windmills. Govern and do not waste your time with this garbage.

    Now I do agree that what happened before Mr. Trump decided to run for office in his birther frenzy might be such an article or charge to be tried by the US Senate, but really this is fantasy and a distraction that assures nothing gets done by the US House until 2020. A great time waster.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    How about a case for letting Trump's presidency play out unless he does something actually worthy of impeachment? So far all we've seen are bizarre conspiracies from the left (the same bizarre conspiracies we see from the right when a Democrat is president).

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    I'm not really sure what "conspiracies from the left" you're talking about. I think an impeachment is something we should consider, especially if the President and his party cannot organize a way to end the shutdown. The talk is a little premature to be sure, but it's not out of the question if this goes on for another month or two. This is already the longest shutdown in US history.

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    The USA congress can choose to start an impeachment of a sitting president for a huge variety of reasons. Whether it would pass if it is not strong enough is a different matter. Also, that the USA congress can do it doesn't mean the USA congress should do it.

    The blame for the shutdown cannot be put solely on Trump's feet as the previous shutdowns under Obama couldn't be placed solely on Obama's feet. It takes two to tango.

    I believe an impeachment before the investigation is over will:
    - not succeed
    - deepen significantly the divide

    I also believe it's not needed.
    The USA people voted 2 years ago and they will vote in another two. When the USA people went to the ballots, Trump has not shown his taxes, there were already tons of rumors about the collusion with Russia, he was already crass and vulgar and he was clear on where he stood on the wall issue.

    I disagree with the American voters that chose to overlook these things and would not vote for such a candidate. But the "population density adjusted" electorate disagreed with me. USA have the president they voted for* and nothing from what is thrown at Trump is new; the voters knew about all these and more when they made their choice.
    Elections should be respected. We are still at "investigation over collusion with evidence and witnesses". Nothing has significantly changed since the elections of 2016. Yes, there are more witnesses and more evidence. So what?
    The USA voters knew about all those. Those that chose to overlook for whatever reason these flaws in their candidate should be respected.

    *population density adjusted
    Last edited by alhoon; January 17, 2019 at 09:31 PM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The USA congress can choose to start an impeachment of a sitting president for a huge variety of reasons.
    Who needs Mueller to come up with questionable things? Frankly, the Federal Government is already asking itself questions and the House will soon follow, at least in the form of the appropriate committees.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Impeaching Donald Trump is something even most Democrats don't want to consider at the moment.
    Stopped reading here. Source? I hope you're right, but I doubt it very strongly, and if I can destroy your credibility here it will preclude me from acknowledging any more of these awful arguments.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The argument is actually, "Let investigations complete" as opposed to "Start a specialized congressional investigation to spite the er." But you can believe the vocal minority all you want. It did the Republicans a lot of good locking Clinton up after all.

    Oh wait.
    I agree, and the anti-Clinton stuff was quite hysterical. I know your view on the Russia probe and you know my limited knowledge of it. I stand by the prinicple that if the Donald did it, he would've tweeted it at the time. "With Putin, just sold the US, very smart deal, made a lot of money".

    Practically speaking the historical test for starting impeachment as established with Nixon is pretty steep, the guy actually has to be twitching and frothing, that is non-functional. I don't think Trump is there although this idiot shutdown is moving him closer. A proven Russia link probably would give an outrage boost enough for an impeachment too.

    That said the Ford position (expounded before he was VP IIRC) is that a high crime and misdemeanour is whatever Congress decides it is, so once the process starts Trump could be impeached successfully for having bad hair.

    Whichever way it goes impeachment is messy and damaging.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I stand by the prinicple that if the Donald did it, he would've tweeted it at the time. "With Putin, just sold the US, very smart deal, made a lot of money".
    This is exactly my thinking. I do not think the President lacks subtlety from either a political or economic perspective. I am not convinced this case has political implications over the economic implications at this time, only time and discovery will tell.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I agree, and the anti-Clinton stuff was quite hysterical. I know your view on the Russia probe and you know my limited knowledge of it. I stand by the prinicple that if the Donald did it, he would've tweeted it at the time. "With Putin, just sold the US, very smart deal, made a lot of money".

    Practically speaking the historical test for starting impeachment as established with Nixon is pretty steep, the guy actually has to be twitching and frothing, that is non-functional. I don't think Trump is there although this idiot shutdown is moving him closer. A proven Russia link probably would give an outrage boost enough for an impeachment too.

    That said the Ford position (expounded before he was VP IIRC) is that a high crime and misdemeanour is whatever Congress decides it is, so once the process starts Trump could be impeached successfully for having bad hair.

    Whichever way it goes impeachment is messy and damaging.
    Johnson was none of those things. Why is it damaging? The provision was put in place to make sure the Executive and the Supreme court could be checked by the Congress. If you are going to hand out either long terms (with cont over the military) or lifetime terms you can't make impeachment something you are afraid to use.
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Johnson was none of those things.
    I am pretty ignorant of the Johnson case, my impression was he was a bad VP (Quail/Ford/LBJ grade) foisted on Lincoln by other factions and was close to a non functional presidency for reasons of incompetence. Is that a fair assessment?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Why is it damaging?
    I don't know, as I am pretty ignorant of US politics, but the fallout from the Nixon impeachment saga seems to have been extremely traumatic for US politics. I imagine its because it strikes at the authority and aura of the office of president (some the US accords an almost mystical quality). There's a fair amount of unwritten and loosely written rules that allow for gamesmanship, "High Crimes" is one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    The provision was put in place to make sure the Executive and the Supreme court could be checked by the Congress. If you are going to hand out either long terms (with cont over the military) or lifetime terms you can't make impeachment something you are afraid to use.
    I agree but its obviously something US legislators are very cautious about using. Historically the President has to have been almost non functional for impeachment to be raised.

    The exception is the Clinton case: Republican brinkmanship has been worsening lately, with delays to SCOTUS appointments etc. was the anti Clinton crusade part of that decline? I guess historically the Republicans have been willing to push the envelope, from Lincoln onward.

    The Republican moral panic about Clinton was almost as shrill as the Democrat moral panic about Trump so maybe they will get an impeachment case up if/when the numbers are right, but its unlikely to succeed given Clinton's and Johnson's impeachments failed.

    I'd say Trump is creeping toward the Nixon standard of isolation and compromised functionality in any case, and there may well be consensus building across the aisle that its time for Pence.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Reminds me of the rightists demanding the impeachment of Obama for being a foreign citizen.

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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Reminds me of the rightists demanding the impeachment of Obama for being a foreign citizen.
    Obama faced similar levels of idiot media babbling, but Trump's blunders are worse. The only area Obama was worse was in the ME and that's only because of Clinton's staggering incompetence.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Obama faced similar levels of idiot media babbling, but Trump's blunders are worse. The only area Obama was worse was in the ME and that's only because of Clinton's staggering incompetence.
    Being an idiot is not grounds to be impeached, that's why Americans have elections every 4 years. To replace one idiot with another.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    Being an idiot is not grounds to be impeached, that's why Americans have elections every 4 years. To replace one idiot with another.
    Although being an idiot and corrupt businessman were reasons for the electors not vote for him - or so said Mr. Hamilton.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #20
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: The Case for Impeachment

    The argument isn't that Trump should be impeached because he's an idiot, the argument is that Trump has done enough to warrant proper investigation i.e. Impeachment.

    Impeachment is a process, not an outcome, a rule-bound procedure for investigating a president, considering evidence, formulating charges, and deciding whether to continue on to trial.
    The point the article is making is that impeachment has been misunderstood to be a final punishment rather than a method of proper investigation.
    Last edited by Katsumoto; January 21, 2019 at 07:35 AM.

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