Dealing with Carthage as Rome?

**Aethyr** · January 14, 2019, 08:43 AM

Their navies are absolutely ruining my day. Historically correct I guess, but I cannot seem to cross over to Corsica and Sardinia without being intercepted and sunk. I am basically stuck in a stalemate where they aren't invading my lands because I am beating them there, but I cannot leave Sicily and Italia to engage them, meanwhile across the adriatic there seems to be forces plotting on my demise

**kpagcha** · January 14, 2019, 09:35 AM

How did Rome beat Carthage in the First Punic War? They built their own navy and kicked their asses. Do the same.

It's costly and requires good strategic decisions and careful planning but you can totally pull it off. Alternatively go for the long run and conquer all Western coastal land from Italia to Gadir and invade Africa from the Southern Iberia, weakening and distracting Carthage while you conquer Corsica and Sardinia.

**Aethyr** · January 14, 2019, 09:48 AM

I managed to secure them both, I am building my naval buildings now, I was relying(lol) on shiprights, but I researched the military warf's. I hold all of Modern Italy and Corsica now. I am friendly with Daorsi, Edetani, Athenai, Massalia and Nori - but I just cant manage to get any military help. Gonna be me alone I guess. I plan on just sacking Carthage and sueing for peace, I don't think getting stuck in an African quagmire for 100 turns.

**Mark88fan** · January 14, 2019, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Aethyr

I don't think getting stuck in an African quagmire for 100 turns.

I have chosen to go this route and cut the head off the snake. I tried to build a navy and fight them on the sea, but was utterly destroyed. Managed to take their capital and Thapsos. Waited many turns to get this area under my control and fight off attacks on Sicily, before I was able to push East to the border with Egypt. Many turns later I had my forces set to push west and remove Carthage from Africa and BAM civil war!

**waidizss** · January 14, 2019, 12:18 PM

Research naval mil building. Make some 39meter ships, sink their navies for insane profit. Don't auto resolve and you'll be fine. 2 armies to secure sicilia, 1 to garrison it while the other one hops to sardinia. 1 navy to secure the coast and then just peace out cause that's the end of 1st punic war. Don't take the mainland that's gamey. Save them for later. I've seen Qart peace out when you besiege capital but not always and if u take it they cannot fight numidia and iberia so they collapse easily.

**TheLonelyEmperor** · January 14, 2019, 12:27 PM

The first absolute MUST is secure your other borders. Its actually quite easy to lose a campaign as Rome if you forget about this, the first main threat (Obviously after actually holding all of Italy) is dealing with the Ligurians and the Insubres. One of these 2 factions usually becomes the main major of the 3 to your north and if you don't butter them up quickly they will definitely stab you in the back. In my playthrough I have the worst scenario where the Insubres liberated a Ligurian faction and I now have to fight both at the same time as Carthage.

Your second biggest threat will be the Illyrian tribes to the East. Usually the Ardiae but any of them really can pose a threat. They might be "just a 1 city tribe" but that 1 tiny city is enough for them to have 2 full stack armies and a full stack navy at the LEAST. They will destroy the income on your coastal towns if you don't deal with them. My suggestion for dealing with the Illyrians and the Gauls is through diplomacy as it is far more cost effective. You don't need a alliance but you do need trade and a non aggression pact at the least. Not only that but try to make them actually LIKE you. For instance do not trade with their enemies at all. If you HAVE to go to war try to set up a few liberated states rather than waste time occupying crappy territory that will divide your resources. That way you eliminate the threat but also give yourself allies in the same process!

So now IF you played your cards right and have the North and East secure you can usually choose quite freely how to deal with Carthage. I usually go the more historical route of taking all of the islands first and then invading Carthage itself. The main thing about this that you already pointed out however is how the hell do you get through their navy? Again I try to go the more historical route. You absolutely cannot go toe to toe with their general Navy as they have some of the best ships in the game. But what you can do is do what the Romans did and turn Navy battles into Land battles. Make your navies be entirely full of 100 man marine ships, I saw 100 because to me the 60 man aren't worth the hefty price in upkeep whereas 100 are far more useful hence they are worth the price. You either constantly ram or board enemy ships. I would say generally you want to ram as many as you can in the first wave and then after you sink a bunch of the enemy ships you begin boarding. The main reason for this is that your marines will be constantly under fire from their pesky archers and skirmishers who can be devastating if left unchecked!

So after you've grinded through the hard fought naval battles the next thing is to follow the remnants of the enemy navies (There will nearly always be 1 or 2 ships that escape) and follow them to whatever port they flee to and blockade them. Blockading them forces the ships to be unable to recruit more ships while at the same time your blockading of other ports should stop them from recruiting more navies. Generally Carthage can have about 4 navies at one time (Starting Imperium I believe) so if you can blockade 4 puny navies you will effectively stop them from launching any Naval threat in the future.

Now you can take your time in sending your Legions to whichever town you please at your own pace. One thing I will mention however is that I recommend you take all of their islands, Loot the city of Carthage (You can get INSANE amounts of money from that) and then sue for peace. This peace will allow you to catch your breath, stabilize the territory you have conquered and will also allow you to declare the next Punic War on your own terms.

Sounds kinda easy but you have to do well in all of your battles otherwise your ships won't be going anywhere!

**antred** · January 14, 2019, 04:37 PM

What I usually do as Rome is to take Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, while attempting to diplomatically isolate Carthage, gradually getting more and more factions to either cancel their treaties with Carthage or outright join my war against them. After a while, Cartage will be fighting a war on many fronts. Eventually, an opportunity will open up when they're distracted elsewhere. That's when I load my 2 armies waiting in Sicily onto ships, escort them with a fleet and sail over to Carthage. A lof of the time I don't even have to invade myself, as my allies finish the Carthaginians off.

**Paladin247** · January 15, 2019, 06:13 PM

I never build navies and I'm a retired USN captain. I've found that in the game fleets are generally money sponges that unlike legions aren't great at conquering territory and increasing your income. What I generally do is not get in a hurry in any way. Lonely Emperor's guidance above is very accurate about securing your borders and watching out for Illyrian factions to your East. With Carthage I try to trade with them in the early goings and just sit chilly watching their struggles.

In two previous campaigns, I've taken Syracuse before they do and then sat waiting to see what they do when we share a border and they did nothing either time and Syracuse is good for some big bucks. I never go on the offensive until I'm rich, with like 100,000 denari. So concentrate on the economy and don't piss them off before you're ready. Then take the rest of Sicily, Corsica and Sardinia with a legion on the two island provinces closest to Carthage. After that I always place a spy or champion next to Carthage and watch for an opportunity to jump across and snatch it when they leave it unmanned and they will as they deal with other enemies.

In my current campaign, I'm using the Historical Objectives for Rome submod which sets out your mission goals in the order Rome actually followed historically. It's been good although you have to follow without skipping any steps before it will flip the page to new missions. I'm enjoying it and it has you deal first with Illyrica and Northern Italy then Syracuse. Thereafter, you're sent to conquer Spain which generates money and you're still not into it with Carthage. Meanwhile, Carthage, Epirus and Athens were having a naval war which depleted everyone's fleets. Then you take Corsica, Sardinia and the rest of Sicily and this starts a war with the Carthaginians. But now instead of just jumping across from the islands, your legions in Spain cross Gibraltar and advance east against the Carthaginian provinces in North Africa eventually wearing them down to the point where they have to leave Carthage unmanned to deal with this threat. And you jump across from Sardinia or Sicily and they're now almost done.

Hope that's helpful.

**Aethyr** · January 15, 2019, 10:07 PM

Thanks Paladin, I might try going for that Historic angle next. Ive managed to destroy all of Carthage's territory leaving them with 1 bordering the Ptolomy Egyptians, they sue'd for peace which I allowed so I can watch them grovel for eternity and I am mopping up their african allies. Massalia just declared on me from a defensive alliance because most of my army is down south, but I have 1 fleet and 1 Legion in Luguria poised to teach them what happens when you oppose Rome's might

Just a quick question, how do you field your legions? Army comp - ive been doing the Hastati/Principe thing with a few spears to soak charges and some Velites for flanks.

**lordamion** · January 15, 2019, 11:24 PM

Simply. You dont deal with them.

Secure liguria and provincia first to the north, you can even go into ilirya but its not necessary really. Once you have the north secured, you can choose to attack spain (tarraco) or take sikelia first.

War with carthage is heavy scripted in the mod, if you take any settlement in sikelia war will automatically trigger, you can even get war also with ptolemaioi as they like cartage a lot. BUT, if you liberate settlements in sikelia (siracusse specially) war will not trigger until carthage ai decides to declare it on you, they will usually deal with spain and africa before that happen. Wich gives you time to build better armies.

The other way arround is to rush lvl 3 military ports for the artillery ships and recruit mercenary cretan and ilirryan archer ships, artillery and misile ships are really good against cartaginian fleets, and deadly against cartaginian transports if they are alone (with a full fleet of 4-6 artillery and the rest misille, you usually destroy an entire transport with 80-90% fleet left if autoresolve), you also have movement distance advantage against them (transport, not fleet).

**TheLonelyEmperor** · January 15, 2019, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Aethyr

Just a quick question, how do you field your legions? Army comp - ive been doing the Hastati/Principe thing with a few spears to soak charges and some Velites for flanks.

I would honestly recommend not using Hastati, they are a cheaper, crappier version of your solid Principe units. While not as nearl as effective, I usually look at Principe as basic Legionnaires and use them in the same fashion. Army of 8 or so Principes, 4 archers, max 2 velites (Remember your melee units all use Pila too) and then if you really want to be OP get 2 ballista (Eventually catapults) and fill the rest with a even number of auxillary light infantry (Such as Taurisci axemen from Italy) and solid cavalry (Specifically Tarantine cav). That to me is the best loadout for almost any situation during the pre-Marian era. Hastati aren't bad necessarily, but to me they are always just a garrison force for areas that I may need to rapidly build a decent army (Such as at Mediolanum) to respond to rebellions or enemy invasions. To me spearmen aren't really too necessary as your archers can deal with most enemy cav (As can other auxillaries you have available) and since Principes have the solid defensive stance they can usually take a cav charge just as good as a spear unit (From the front ofcourse).

I play a LOT as Rome and to me this is the best pre-Marian setup. However it also depends on your playstyle and who you are fighting. For example fighting Massalia, since they are Greek and generally very slow you can easily outclass them with your cav and almost certainly would never need spears against them. However since their hoplites are well trained and equipped you won't just want to grind them from the front but use your cavalry superiority to your advantage quickly.

**ramjb** · January 16, 2019, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by TheLonelyEmperor

I would honestly recommend not using Hastati, they are a cheaper, crappier version of your solid Principe units.

they are far cheaper tho and they have lower maintenaince. Doesn't look a lot in an unit by unit basis but when you have a good number of them it adds up, and by the early game you'll be struggling with money. They are far easier to substitute with auxiliaries too so when in campaign you can keep your legion's fighting power roughly the same by hiring on-spot heavy infantry while not losing a lot quality wise to make up for your hastati losses.

a 20 stack legion for me is a general, 4 hastati, 4 principes, 2 triarii, 2 melee cav, 2 skirmish cav (Tarentine or numidian, you can recruit the first from Italy, the 2nd in sicily), 2 jav auxiliaries, 3 archers (crete archers you can hire in syracuse). Works really well.

Strategy wise, I chose to go the historical route. Kick the etruscans, force Pyrrhus out of Italy, make peace, lay low for some years. That gives time both for buildings to be built, raising the income as a result, give time for techs to develop, and kickstart a navy while keeping 2 full stack legions. I cover my rear with trade and non agression pacts so I can focus on those punic dudes.
Then I move into Syracuse, which means war, and advance towards the rest of the island, while raising a 3rd legion in Rome. In 3-5 turns, depending on how things go and wether carthage counterattacks you should have secured the island. Then begins the attrition phase. One legion near syracuse, other, preferrably the most experienced, just straight in the middle between the other two settlements - any counterattack will meet both your legion and a garrison as a result. Your hold on the island should be uncontestable and the new province more than make up for the cost of the 3rd legion being raised back in Rome.

This is the phase where the navy comes into play. If you get reasonably good at the ramming game even a full stack of one general ship and 19 birremes can make a number on even cartaghe's biggest fleets. You will win some battles, lose some, losses will be heavy in those engagements but you'll be losing cheapo ships you can mass build anywhere, they will be losing hexeres and penteres, trihemiolas and trieres. Plain to see the attrition game plays heavily in your favor. Until you begin pumping out triremes, quadriremes and ,specially, quinquirremes like donuts out of Taras and even Syracuse if you choose to put a wharf there too (I don't think is needed but you can do it). My standard fleet once those come online is 9 of the largest one I can build, 9 birremes, general, supply ship.
By the time quinquiremes come online it's game over for the cartaginians. Those ships kick ass. And even a combined trirreme/birreme stack can win against an AI stack with a couple of penteres, several trieres, not to mention the usual tower hexeres or even hepteres of the general. Again it won't be free, it'll be costly, you'll have to watch out for your general (AI loves to mass charge his ship), but is doable.

In the meantime while you're fielding birreme only fleets, or trirreme/birreme, your objective is attrition. Wear them down. Hunt them, don't give them respite. 3-4 big sized battles and the carthaginian fleets will begin being rarer and rarer. Not to mention you'll be able to hunt for their transports, which the AI shuttles constantly and which are utterly defenceless against a mass ram charge. Eventually their fleet activity will go down A LOT. Time to assault Corsica/Sardinia. Embark your 3rd legion from Rome, escort it with your fleet with a supply ship so they don't suffer attrition, get Alalia, then after stabilized, move south with the legion and get Sardinia. Extra income means a 4th legion or a 2nd fleet, whichever you think is best.

then it's just bidding time, developing your new province, and keeping the naval game up for the big prize: Africa. Work your diplo to peace out with the numidian factions - not indispensable but it'll make your life in Africa FAR easier. If you find ANY numidian fleet spare their lives, the diplo bonus will help you there. If you don't manage a peace with them before the invasion, once you fight them in Africa, again, spare their lifes to make peacing out easier. Numidia stacks are VICIOUS, I've found, you want them off your legion's backs ASAP.

Once you decide to invade your sicilian legions should be able to one-two punch Carthage itself in two turns. One to embark them, 2nd to disembark and attack the city. 2 full stacks plus the escorting fleet and possibly the 2nd one too means an autoresolve win, but it's far better to take things in hand, use your archers to burn doors and ladders to put soldiers on different places of the city to open a door. Once that's done the cavalry can flood into the city and get the capture point before the AI even knows what's happening.

leave one legion to guard Carthage and fend off the more than likely counterattacks. Raise a general in cartaghe itself and hire some mercenaries and local levies to back up that legion ASAP, the AI will be ultra-reluctant to attack that force plus the city garrison. If you feel like it you can even shuttle the legion in Sardinia down to Africa by this point to further ensure your hold on the city is uncontested, escorted by one of your fleets.

With the other legion sweep south alongside the other one of your fleets to get the other three settlements. Fill in losses with local levies or mercenaries as needed, but just don't stop. In a few turns the whole lot of Africa's province and it's agricultural and commercial riches should be under your firm hold.

And by that stage, carthage will be literally begging for a peace.

**Aethyr** · January 16, 2019, 03:28 AM

Thanks! Time to rebuild some armies, haven't clashed with Massalia yet, but I am about to

**antred** · January 16, 2019, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Paladin247

I never build navies and I'm a retired USN captain.

Without supply ships, how do you avoid attrition when hauling a legion across a sea?

Also, may I ask what ship you commanded during your USN days, or would that be an opsec violation?

**Aethyr** · January 16, 2019, 09:30 AM

Disciplined formation seems to be getting my armies killed, I am assuming it is because after throwing my pila I am switching to the formation and the enemy overlap between the new space between my units, would that seem right?

Edit: Nope, on defence/bridge battles the enemy blobs up and just moves through my units routing them extremely quickly... Strange, I guess my best bet is to let them through and fight them like a field battle, or auto resolve.