Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

[Prodromos]

Löwe's article only describes specifically about the pogroms following the ascension of Alexander III to the imperial throne, while his conclusion is not accepted by the scientific consensus. Meanwhile, in 1905, the Romanov administration insisted on disorientating the revolutionaries, by reigniting the tensions between the various communities, not to mention their indirect role, ranging from forced segregation to the classification of Jews as 2nd class citizens, which only flamed inter-religious hostilities. For example, the authorities blamed foreign agents (aka Jews) for the bombing of Alexander's II carriage, while also imposing the May Laws, further reinforcing the oppression of the Jewish community and therefore indirectly provoking a negative reaction against the Jews, as a reprisal for the assassination of the monarch.

Yeah, I was only talking about the 1880s pogroms there. Russia was pretty oppressive of Jews, but I don't know if the evidence shows that the Tsar encouraged the pogroms. This is what the Wikipedia article you cited says:

The pogroms are generally thought to have been either organized or at least condoned by the authorities.[24][25][26][27] This view was challenged by Hans Rogger, I. Michael Aronson and John Klier, who couldn't find such sanctions documented in the state archives.[28][29]

Klier and Aronson are quoted in, "Pogroms and Riots: German Press Responses to Anti-Jewish Violence in Germany":



The articled I quote goes into greater length detailing the Tsar's reaction to the pogroms.

It has often been argued, or simply stated, that the pogroms were organized by the Tsarist government. But conclusive evidence of this has never been produced. True, many local police officers responded slowly, some even supported the pogromists or directed them, the army was slow to appear, in many places incompetence and a reluctance to resort to drastic measures could be observed and all this let things get out of hand. One has, however, to give the authorities their due: in other places pogroms were ruthlessly suppressed, the police killed pogromists by using fire-arms against them even in the first wave of pogroms , and there was a complaint by at least one liberal journalist with impeccable credentials against what he saw as an overly ruthless suppression of anti-Jewish violence . Not only is any direct evidence of the government's supposed complicity in organizing the pogroms not to come by, but the circumstantial evidence also does not prove a conspiracy to organise a wave of pogroms, with the government privy to it. Had there been such a conspiracy, it would be difficult to explain why in many places the police had taken precautions and prevented pogroms, or why, if violence started, they acted swiftly and were able to avoid the worst. It does not agree with a conspiracy theory either that pogroms did not occur over the Pale of Settlement, but rather in the south and south-west. Beyond this, Russia's police were pitifully undermanned, undertrained, underpayed and ill-equipped, singularly unsuited to deal with outbreaks of mass violence on the scale of the pogroms. Morale was low and had only recently been dealt another blow by the assassination of the emperor....

The government was taken by surprise and at first was deeply afraid that the pogroms could be the work of the revolutionaries and as such only the beginning of a much more frightening attack on order and property. After all, the pogroms happened not too long after the murder of the "Tsar-Liberator" by a terrorist group whose strength was imagined to be almost unlimited, a belief which was grotesquely out of touch with the reality. Still, their involvement was not to be dismissed easily . In its internal communications the government did not betray any sign of foreknowledge of the pogroms; nor did Alexander III himself. Rather, he showed himself anguished and angered. The Tsar ordered a careful investigation - particularly into a possible involvement of the revolutionaries . It should also be remembered that the Minister of Interior was not the rather anti-Semitic and demagogic Ignat'ev when the first wave broke, but the liberal and level-headed Loris-Melikov whose purpose was to win moderate public opinion back for the regime. It was not in his interest to unleash the forces of the chern, the rabble.

Moreover, your quote corroborates the Orthodox Church's contribution, not only by the undeniable preach of bigotry, but also through the leading of the bloodthirsty mob by eminent archbishops and powerless priests. The fact that some clerics condemned the crimes or that the Patriarchate cowardly refused to publicly determine its opinion on the issue does not absolve the institution of its nefarious role.

Many priests, even today, are total psychopaths, but that doesn't mean they speak for their Church as an institution. There's a big difference between "Members of the Church did X", or, "The Church failed to condemn X", vs, "The Church did X."

The actions of an individual priest don't reflect an official position of the Church. Individual priests spread hatred of Jews while others didn't or defended them.

Anyway, I just found it weird the narrative you were painting, of progressive atheist communists liberating Jews from repressive dictators and the Church. It's just silly.

[Beorn]

I am reading the discussion here with some interest and although I am far from knowledgeable regarding the oncoming elections and the political party landscape, I spent some time there last spring and I can confirm that Ukraine is definitely a neo-fascist state where looking middle-eastern or expressing scepticism about the ongoing events is a pretty bad idea

[Love Mountain]

That's called classic Slavic racism. I run into one or two hardcore racists every time I'm in Russia.

[Aexodus]

Yeah I do think Eastern European as a whole is measurably more racist than Western Europe.

[Beorn]

That's called classic Slavic racism. I run into one or two hardcore racists every time I'm in Russia.

Nah, I 've been pretty much everywhere east of Vienna/Sczeczin and west of Russia in 2018 (I lived in Vilnius), and my turkish friends were racially profiled, threatened and robbed by borderguards only in Ukraine

Yeah I do think Eastern European as a whole is measurably more racist than Western Europe.

True, but their borders have been reopened for less than 30 years, so I expect that things will probably change for the better, albeit slowly

[Love Mountain]

If you says so Beorn. I obviously can't comment on your experience. I'm basing my view on both my childhood experience living there, my contemporary experience of having visited Russia many times for family/tourism, and the experiences of relatives and friends, many of whom lived in Russia all of their lives and continue to do so.

[Ludicus]

In my opinion, it is undeniable that fascist-wannabes have risen to prominence in Eastern Europe, which motivates populist and reactionary politicians to pander to their chauvinist fetishes, by praising fans of Nazism and imposing authoritarian measures against the voice of the opposition. International criticism is usually unacceptably mild, except from the announcements of the Kremlin

Good post.
Thinking about it, in your opinion - is there any relationship between the actual status quo and the so-called Euromaidan revolution?
Ukraine's revolution of dignity: The dynamics of Euromaidan

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Anyway, even with its flaws, advances and retreats, today more than ever, in this new age of the rise of authoritarianism, the EU has been a successful peace project in Europe. Seven decades of peaceful coexistence, after the devastation of two World Wars and the Holocaust.

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I notice a much smaller coverage about the endorsement of fascist by Eastern European countries

There you are wrong.I could easily post an abundant number of links,articles,publications about the rise of new fascism.
The EU faces a rebellion in the eastern countries (Visegrad Group) and patient diplomacy is a key to success. Anyway, the majority of the EU countries backed a motion to trigger the article 7 against Hungary.
I ask myself, will the EU be able to function after May 2019?

[Heathen Hammer]

The funniest part is that people who actually glorify that are pro-NATO and pro-EU.

As the russian monarchists ( Whites) did also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Russia)

The russian civil war led to a series of escalating action and reaction.

But even the sociopath Stalin, who led one of the worst dictatorships, committed no genocide because of racial reasons. His masskillings were political motivated (elimination of every potential opposition to his dictatorship, even when this was only a "danger" in his paranoia).

Whites in RCW were not monarchists, while White Terror is mainly a fictional event, created by Soviet propaganda machine to justify very much so real Red Terror. Whites weren't fighting that war with white gloves, but they were hardly as genocidal as "internationalists" were.
It is quite interesting how biggest genocides in history were committed in the name of equality, egalitarianism and internationalism.

[Ludicus]

White Terror is mainly a fictional event

A biased statement.
No, it's not fictional. Atrocities were committed on both sides. In doubt, ask the antisemite Donikin ("strike the Jews and save Russia!") with the White army engaged in rape/loot and murder of the Jews at the end of 1919.At the time the Civil War was over, about 2,000 pogroms left an estimated 100,000 Jews dead and more than half a million homeless.
Ask Kornilov and ask Markov: "I give you a very cruel order: do not take prisoners! I accept responsibility for this order before God and the Russian people";and even before the red army was formed, he promised:"the greater the terror, the greater our victories"
The white dictator of Syberia, admiral Kolchak, tried to justify the massacres his forces carried out: "we were fighting Bolsheviks"

Simply put, as Bortneski - the historian of the whites - put it, "the white terror was logically produced by a white political system of military dictatorship which tried to compete with the Bolshevik proletarian dictatorship".

It is a factual reality that it was not the red terror that led to the ultimate victory of the reds.The victory was enabled by the support of the workers and of much of the peasantry. Social-marxists came to power with majority support in the country.

[alhoon]

Please respect the topic which has to do with Ukraine and Nazi apologism in modern Ukraine and very little to do with the Red/White terror and the Russian civil war.

[Basil II the B.S]

You know what's funny? Out of all the times that Nazism is brought up in the West, the only legitimate case in indeed in Ukraine, but Western media are silent about it, because the establishment is deep balls in this failed attempt to snatch Ukraine from Russia. The European parliament had denounced Svoboda in 2012 with an official declaration, now they don't say a word about what's going on.

It also won't work. They had a nice idea to separate the Ukrainian church too, but it still won't be enough. They'll remove Russian language next, possibly start to persecute the Russian minority as well to piss off Russia, but none of that will work.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

"Shady past with Nazism." Zero danger to the world.

Current control of Zionism and it's cousin, Marxism. Utterly ravaging the world.

But according to you, OP, and the majority here, I'm betting the Nazi label is applied to a very broad spectrum. Everything from exercise to expecting that immigrants pass basic tests for citizenship is fascist, isn't it? And no, you tragically misinformed people, the atrocities in Russia weren't political. They were entirely racial.
You people deserve the dystopian ring that's tightening around you, and you'll still be flapping your gums as your society crumbles, like a senseless trilobite, gnawing on a worm, even while it's being gnawed upon.

[HeinzGuderiann]

queue the people who think they are great moral thinkers and think they have the right to Ukraine's future! News for you all! Its Ukraine, they can do what they want to do, imagine if people were questioning the actions of whatever nations you guys come from!

[95thrifleman]

queue the people who think they are great moral thinkers and think they have the right to Ukraine's future! News for you all! Its Ukraine, they can do what they want to do, imagine if people were questioning the actions of whatever nations you guys come from!

I'm British, I'm expected to be responsible for every evil of the world since the dark ages. Genocide to concentration camps, slavery to witch trials, terrorism of all kinds.

On one hand my nation is a shariah state enabling the islamic take over of the world and on the other hand my nation is a zionist servant to america and israel enslaving islam across the world.

I'm used to people questioning the actions of my nation.

[HeinzGuderiann]

Yea I hear ya. I live in America and we are ed more than Europe maybe. We die for Isreal with constant wars in the middle east, we have Jews in every position of power here. Life sucks here. Hopefully, my generation (gen z) can fix that.

[NosPortatArma]

it wouldnt make any sense for usa to treat israel as they do if it wasnt for the influential jewish diaspora in usa. thats not a conspiracy, just common sense.

[95thrifleman]

it wouldnt make any sense for usa to treat israel as they do if it wasnt for the influential jewish diaspora in usa. thats not a conspiracy, just common sense.

It's also geopolitical. Israel is a pro-western, non-islamic democracy in a region hostile to american interests.

[Heathen Hammer]

It's also geopolitical. Israel is a pro-western, non-islamic democracy in a region hostile to american interests.

There is no objective evidence that handing out dozens of billions /year in foreign aid to Israel benefits American taxpayer in any way whatsoever. It is not an imaginary problem and US wouldn't lose anything over not throwing so much taxpayer funds on an unpredictable and unreliable country like Israel.

As for Ukraine - it is a corrupt oligarchy, which is very far from being fascist in conventional definition of the term. Some pro-government militias use some symbols that were used by Third Reich - they are nothing but LARPerst, especially given how pretty much every idiot in Ukrainian politics who spouts pro-EU, pro-NATO and anti-Russians nonsense is typically a former member of communist party.

[NosPortatArma]

It's also geopolitical. Israel is a pro-western, non-islamic democracy in a region hostile to american interests.

Normally when you pick a good ally, you don't choose the smallest country, which doesn't have oil, and which is hated by all it's neighbors. Such a move is only motived by a powerful lobby. USA has other allies in the middle east that are based on actual geopolitical interests, like the KSA, which has tons of oil. Israel is a nice country.. it's good that they're democratic and such, but they don't deserve billions of taxpayer money for it.

[Love Mountain]

Normally when you pick a good ally, you don't choose the smallest country, which doesn't have oil, and which is hated by all it's neighbors. Such a move is only motived by a powerful lobby. USA has other allies in the middle east that are based on actual geopolitical interests, like the KSA, which has tons of oil. Israel is a nice country.. it's good that they're democratic and such, but they don't deserve billions of taxpayer money for it.

Slightly more than half of US oil consumption was satisfied by imports. OPEC fulfilled roughly 33% of that half. The Persian Gulf fulfilled another 17%. Note that some people are counted in both groups so the total amount that comes from OPEC+Persian Gulf is actually less than 50%. Saudi Arabia supplies about 9% of our imported oil, which is the same amount as Mexico. By far, our largest partner is Canada who supplies 40%. To be concise, US oil imports are remarkably diversified and the only trade partner we are really dependent on is Canada, who is quite possibly our closest ally.

The most likely reason behind our co-operation with Israel isn't because a shadowy cabal is looking out for Jewish interests, but because Israel is the most stable, democratic, and pro-American government in the Middle East. It serves as a counter-weight to traditional American rivals in the region. The extensive history of co-operation in military technology, intelligence, and diplomacy has borne a lot of fruit over the years. If the Israel Lobby was so powerful, then they would've deleted the Iran Nuclear Deal before it was even born. And by the way, Liberals hate Israel, yet "liberal media" hasn't pushed the Israel Lobby angle in any serious way whatsoever. The Israel lobby exists and it's powerful, but to suggest that it has the kind of powerful pull that's imagined by the "alternative media" is nothing short of fantastical.