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Thread: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

  1. #61
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    It is more simple. Israel is like natural target for all Muslim countries around. Now Im overly simplifying things but. USA is large country, long border a lot coastal border. It is much easier to put some money into Israel and fix some not so friendly states there instead to allowing their attention back to USA. Israel is basically big red flag in front of face of bull....Plus it is small tightly packed country, lot fighting experience, lot anti terrorism experience, lot counterspy/spy experience, population is well armed and trained. This is red flag is fortress and one being hard to crack. Now i know that an average murica pub has more guns than average third world country, still america is big, you can hide there whole army. You cannot hide anything at all in Israel.

    For example Iran is kept in check by Israel. Because he cannot run around just like that and trying to secure local dominance. There is always Israel with USA support with hi tech weaponry..one more power player jsut around corner. Not only Turkey or SA.
    Last edited by Daruwind; January 21, 2019 at 02:57 PM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    The alliance with Israel is pretty valuable. The challenges we're facing now, Israel has been dealing with them for decades. Just one of thousands of examples of co-operation over the years:

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...rism-operation

    Off and on for a year, I followed N and his team as they traveled, trained, and exchanged tactics with their American, French, and German counterparts on everything from retaking passenger trains to thwarting complex attacks from cadres of suicide bombers and gunmen firing rocket-propelled grenades. YAMAM’s technology, including robots and Throwbots (cameras housed in round casings that upright themselves upon landing), is dazzling to the uninitiated. But so are the stats: YAMAM averages some 300 missions a year. According to N, his commandos have stopped at least 50 “ticking time bombs” (suicide bombers en route to their targets) and hundreds of attacks at earlier stages.

    “I’ve been out with the YAMAM on operations,” John Miller, the New York Police Department’s deputy commissioner of intelligence and counterterrorism, told me in his office, a few blocks from the World Trade Center. “There are a lot of outfits that have a lot of knowledge and do a lot of training, but that’s different from a lot of experience.” He pointed out that for every terrorist attack in Israel that makes the news, there are 10 that are prevented by YAMAM acting on perishable intelligence provided by Shin Bet...

    The N.Y.P.D.’s Miller, for his part, claimed U.S. law-enforcement agencies benefit from YAMAM’s successes. A former journalist, who once interviewed bin Laden, Miller maintained, “You can learn a lot from the YAMAM about tactics, techniques, and procedures that, when adapted, can work in any environment, including New York. It’s why we go to Israel once or twice a year—not just to see what we’ve seen before but to see what we’ve seen before that they’re doing differently. Because terrorism, like technology—and sometimes because of technology—is constantly evolving. If you’re working on the techniques you developed two years ago, you’re way out of date.”

    Kirstjen Nielsen, Trump’s secretary of Homeland Security, concurs: “We have a lot to learn from [Israel—YAMAM in particular] in terms of how they use technology as a force multiplier to combat an array of threats. Over the last 15 years, we at D.H.S. have partnered with them on almost every threat.”

  3. #63
    Captain Arrrgh!'s Avatar I'z in yer grass
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    it wouldnt make any sense for usa to treat israel as they do if it wasnt for the influential jewish diaspora in usa. thats not a conspiracy, just common sense.
    This is correct. Alas, common sense is at a premium these days.

    It's also geopolitical. Israel is a pro-western, non-islamic democracy in a region hostile to american interests.
    This is incorrect, and mainstream pablum.
    Israel isn't pro-Western. Israel is pro-Israel. Israel has repeatedly -and will in the future- upon the US for it's own interests.

  4. #64
    Captain Arrrgh!'s Avatar I'z in yer grass
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    It is more simple. Israel is like natural target for all Muslim countries around. Now Im overly simplifying things but. USA is large country, long border a lot coastal border. It is much easier to put some money into Israel and fix some not so friendly states there instead to allowing their attention back to USA. Israel is basically big red flag in front of face of bull....Plus it is small tightly packed country, lot fighting experience, lot anti terrorism experience, lot counterspy/spy experience, population is well armed and trained. This is red flag is fortress and one being hard to crack. Now i know that an average murica pub has more guns than average third world country, still america is big, you can hide there whole army. You cannot hide anything at all in Israel.

    For example Iran is kept in check by Israel. Because he cannot run around just like that and trying to secure local dominance. There is always Israel with USA support with hi tech weaponry..one more power player jsut around corner. Not only Turkey or SA.
    You watch to much TV. This is not the case at all.

  5. #65
    Praepositus
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post

    "Shady past with Nazism." Zero danger to the world.
    Countries invaded by Nazis: Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, France, Channel Islands, Yugoslavia, Greece, Soviet Union.

    Countries invaded by Israel: Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt.

    Genocides mass murders & expulsions attempted/planned:

    Nazis: All Slavs (expulsion planned, tens of millions of mass murders), all Jews (attempted genocide), all Rom (attempted genocide), all homosexuals (attempted-many mass murders), all disabled people (attempted-many mass murders).

    Israel: Sunni Palestinians (expulsion, although under UN definitions arguably genocide, many assassinations).

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    Current control of Zionism and it's cousin, Marxism. Utterly ravaging the world.
    1989 called, something about a wall. Also, what? Zionism is a religious movement, Israel was founded by non-Zionist atheist socialists and has become a capitalist democracy. Do you imagine Jews as a Eusocial cooperative hive mind? Perhaps have a conversation with two rabbis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    But according to you, OP, and the majority here, I'm betting the Nazi label is applied to a very broad spectrum. Everything from exercise to expecting that immigrants pass basic tests for citizenship is fascist, isn't it? And no, you tragically misinformed people, the atrocities in Russia weren't political. They were entirely racial.
    Nazi politics was framed as racial, you seem to be creating a false distinction here. Also, Ukrainians served in the SS, the actual armed security forces of the Nazi party. That's not broad spectrum, its actual Nazism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    You people deserve the dystopian ring that's tightening around you, and you'll still be flapping your gums as your society crumbles, like a senseless trilobite, gnawing on a worm, even while it's being gnawed upon.
    Trilobites don't have gums, and were a highly successful life form persisting for over 250 million years surviving at least two mass extinction events before succumbing in a third (the Permian/Triassic which led to the rise of the dinosaurs). If my society survives that long it I will be extremely proud, not to say surprised.

    I have to say your posts exhibit an almost pathological overestimation of the power of Israel and/or individual Jews. Shouldn't you be worshipping these godlike superiors? I mean if they are that far superior to you (and all of us as you assume) surely you would abase yourself in the presence of their superior greatness.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  6. #66

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    Normally when you pick a good ally, you don't choose the smallest country, which doesn't have oil, and which is hated by all it's neighbors.
    Israel had plenty of oil when this arrangement between the US and Israel started. Israel was in possession of oil and natural gas reserves worth more than all the aid the US has ever given to Israel, but the US convinced them to give it back to Egypt. The US paid for a degree of peace in the Middle East in order to bring all the belligerent parties securely within the US sphere of influence and out of the USSR's. That's why annual aid to Jordan and Egypt is always roughly equal to the annual aid to Israel, it's all part of the agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    Israel is a nice country.. it's good that they're democratic and such, but they don't deserve billions of taxpayer money for it.
    Israel doesn't actually receive money from the US. Nearly all the money allotted to aid for Israel stays in the US. It goes to US arms manufacturers. The remainder goes to joint research & development projects - the US funds the research, the Israelis mostly carry it out and test it in real life combat situations, and the US retains rights to the technologies that are developed.

    What do you think the US gets for its 3.2 billion to Israel compared to its roughly equivalent 3 billion to Egypt and Jordan? Israel isn't even the country that receives the most aid from the US. I guess you could argue by some rationale that Afghanistan deserves the 5.7 billion annually, but then the US isn't getting much for it. How about the 3.7 billion to Iraq? Unlike most allies, the US doesn't spend money to directly defend Israel. For example, the US spends something like 5.5 billion annually defending South Korea and Japan, but of course we all know that's also about projecting power. Same with the aid the US dishes out in the Middle East, including to Israel.

    So what's all this talk about Israel got to do with Ukraine though? I see it going on for a page or so, but I'm not seeing the connection.

    Source
    Last edited by sumskilz; January 23, 2019 at 01:51 AM. Reason: ...it was late
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #67

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Israel had plenty of oil when this arrangement between the US and Israel started. Israel was in possession of oil and natural gas reserves worth more than all the aid the US has ever given to Israel, but the US convinced them to give it back to Egypt. The US paid for a degree of peace in the Middle East in order to bring all the belligerent parties securely within the US sphere of influence and out of the USSR's. That's why annual aid to Jordan and Egypt is always roughly equal to the annual aid to Israel, it's all part of the agreement.

    Israel doesn't actually receive money from the US. Nearly all the money allotted to aid for Israel stays in the US. It goes to US arms manufacturers. The remainder goes to joint research & development projects - the US funds the research, the Israelis mostly carry it out and test it in real life combat situations, and the US retains rights to the technologies that are developed.

    What do you think the US gets for its 3.2 billion to Israel compared to its roughly equivalent 3 billion to Egypt and Jordan? Israel isn't even the country that receives the most aid from the US. I guess you could argue by some rationale that Afghanistan deserves the 5.7 billion annually, but then the US isn't getting much for it. How about the 3.7 billion to Iraq? Unlike most allies, the US doesn't spend money to directly defend Israel. For example, the US spends something like 5.5 billion annually defending South Korea and Japan, but of course we all know that's also about projecting power. Same with the aid the US dishes out in the Middle East, including to Israel.

    So what's all this talk about Israel got to do with Ukraine though? I see it going on for a page or so, but I'm not seeing the connection.

    Source
    Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.

  8. #68
    Decanus
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.
    Don`t forget the regular Jewish worldconspiracy talk.

    @Sumskilz: Good Points, thank you for bringing some facts into this mess of a discussion.
    @Cyclops: I`ll choose the mighty Trilobites as my new godess. If I would choose to worship the almighty jews, somebody will surely say thats because of my german guilt-complex

    To Topic: Aren`t there soon some elections in the Ukraine?

  9. #69

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Presidential ones, yes. The most optimal outcome is a Poroshenko victory but thats unlikely.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Any political discussion involving the far right becoming nazis tends to devolve in an obscure "But Israel are nazis too" argument for some reason.
    That has to do with the fact that claim that "far right are becoming nazis" is fictional and has no ground in reality, especially given how most of such parties in the West are pro-Israel.

  11. #71
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    yes, ukrainians may have done some genociding to jews and poles, but they have also been genocided by russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    west europe forgets that for east europe ussr was just as bad as nazis
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    +1 this post surprised me lol...and that would be the Holodomor, a genocide of the Ukrainians by the Soviets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    As Marcus_Iunius_Brutus_Caepio has pointed out, there is a difference between the elimination of a whole nation and the doings of Stalin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    "Shady past with Nazism." Zero danger to the world
    Like Simone Veil, I fear the banalization of the Holocaust.




    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    "far right are becoming nazis" is fictional
    No, it's not fictional.

    Germany's memory of Holocaust is 'crumbling': Foreign Minister Heiko ...
    In a guest column for Germany's Die Welt newspaper, Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, noting a recent rise in anti-Semitism in Germany, wrote that the country's "culture of remembrance is crumbling" amid "pressure from the extreme right."
    Maas cited a CNN study that found 40 percent of young Germans don't know much about the Holocaust. "These are shocking figures that we can't idly resign ourselves to. Schoolchildren needed "new approaches" so that they not only remember the crimes of Nazi Germany, but also learn present-day lessons from them.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une me perverse. Cest d'avoir une me habitue
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  12. #72

    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Since when is CNN a valid source?

  13. #73
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Ukraine's deep dive into Nazism Apologism

    Sorry, for a brief moment I forgot that your State Department spokesman claims "fake news is a real problem".
    ---
    A Jewish source,Jewish leader: Over 40 percent of young Germans don't know what ... Ynet.

    More than 40 percent of young Germans have no idea what Auschwitz is and 20 percent of Hungarians hold anti-Semitic views, Jewish leaders said this week during the annual National Community Directors' Forum of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) held in Israel.
    ----
    More sources?
    Antisemitism expressed by Far-right parties and groups in Eastern Europe and Greece.

    Some references,
    -Beauzamy, Brigitte, Continuities of Fascist Discourses, Discontinuities of Extreme-Right Political Actors? Overt and Covert Antisemitism in the Contemporary French Radical Right,” in Ruth Wodak and John -E. Richardson, eds., Analysing Fascist Discourse : European Fascism in Talk and Text (New York: Routledge, 2013), pp. 163 - 180.
    -Ellinas, Antonis A., The Rise of Golden Dawn: The New Face of the Far Right in Greece, South European Society and Politics, vol. 18, no. 4 (2013), pp. 543 - 565.
    -Himka, John-Paul and Joanna Beata Michlic, eds., Bringing the Dark Past to Light: The Reception of the Holocaust in Postcommunist Europe (Lincoln : University of Nebraska Press, 2013).
    -Kovcs, Andrs, Antisemitic Prejudice and Political Antisemitism in Present-Day Hungary,” Journal for Study of Antisemitism, vol.4, no.2 (2012), pp. 443 - 468.
    -Wetzel, Juliane, “Antisemitism among Right-Wing Extremist Groups, Organizations, and Parties in Post unification Germany,” in Hermann Kurthen, Werner Bergmann and Rainer Erb, eds., Antisemitism and Xenophobia in Germany after Unification (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997), pp. 159 - 173.
    --
    ---
    In Austria... Should we talk to Austria's anti-Semitic far right? - Opinion - Israel ...

    There is widespread and grave concern in Europe at the recent strengthening of the extreme right and its political gains in number of European countries.
    That concern was notable at two major recent conferences on anti-Semitism and how to combat it - one in Vienna this February and the other in Jerusalem, in March. The Vienna conference was even, aspirationally, entitled: "An End to Anti-Semitism!"
    In both places there was virtual unanimity on one issue, from the many speakers - researchers as well as political leaders, representatives of international organizations and the upper echelons of the Jewish local community: There should be no contact whatsoever with members and representatives of the FP, the Austrian Freedom Party, including the party’s ministers in Chancellor Sebastian Kurz's new government coalition. That government was labeled by the students demonstrating at the same time at the University of Vienna as "not kosher."
    A Nazi throwback songbook that glorifies the hatred of Jews and belittles the Shoah is still in use by student fraternities considered part of the hard core support for the FP.
    ... the leaders of the party would surely be tempted to misuse those channels of communication in order to enhance their public rhetoric, claiming that they are fighting anti-Semitism within their ranks, but in fact doing nothing, or close to nothing.
    ....the idea that Jews and Israelis would be natural allies for European right-wing anti-refugee policies, when most of the refugees are Muslims, may be unfounded.
    In France...
    France's far-right presidential candidate is whitewashing the French role in the Holocaust

    In 1995, French President Jacques Chirac apologized to the Jews for the French state’s role in the Vel d’Hiv roundup, and for the deportation of some 76,000 Jews from France during the Nazi occupation.
    It was this that Le Pen denied last night. "I think France isn't responsible for the Vel d'Hiv..."
    Currently, she said, schoolchildren are only taught “reasons to criticise (the country), and to only see, perhaps, the darkest aspects of our history".
    She continued: “So, I want them to be proud of being French again.”
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une me perverse. Cest d'avoir une me habitue
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