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Thread: US Government Shutdown

  1. #401

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    You even admitted that people voted for Trump for multiple reasons, which may or may not have included wall expansion. Now you are claiming that he has an electoral mandate? What is this, the Bush years? I know you are only interested in propaganda, but the political left didn't become irrelevant after Trump was elected. The Democrats are generally supported by their constituency to not give in to Trump. And they can. So they did. Trump also already took credit for the shut down, so telling people this was all an evil Democrat scheme isn't going get you far.

    This is all really circumventing the central point I was making about your claim "Americans" want the wall. No they don't. Only Americans who prioritize the same things you do want it, and that isn't "most". You don't get to tell Americans what they do or do not want.
    Like I said, you either don't understand, or are pretending to not understand how this works.
    Trump is simply trying to fulfill his electoral promises, as per the list of things he promised during his electoral campaign. If Democrats cared so much about public spending, we wouldn't see them approve wasting billions on aid to foreign states or warhawkish BS that America engages to every once in a while.

  2. #402
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Like I said, you either don't understand, or are pretending to not understand how this works.
    Trump is simply trying to fulfill his electoral promises, as per the list of things he promised during his electoral campaign. If Democrats cared so much about public spending, we wouldn't see them approve wasting billions on aid to foreign states or warhawkish BS that America engages to every once in a while.
    Spending gets approved because there is a vote in both houses of Congress to approve the spending. This is not pure Democratic Party any more than it is pure Republican Party votes.

  3. #403

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Like I said, you either don't understand, or are pretending to not understand how this works.
    Yes, please tell me how my own government works, person who has not lived here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Trump is simply trying to fulfill his electoral promises, as per the list of things he promised during his electoral campaign.
    I understand why Trump is trying to push his pet project; that isn't really different than any other president. The problem for him is he doesn't have the political capital or mass support he needs to do it. So he needs to either give up, or cut deals to do it. The Democrats aren't beholden to his pet project, they are representing their own constituency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    If Democrats cared so much about public spending, we wouldn't see them approve wasting billions on aid to foreign states or warhawkish BS that America engages to every once in a while.
    The last war we actually conducted was started by a Republican president, so I don't know why you are calling Democrats out for lavish foreign spending. Foreign aid has never come close to war spending overseas. It is almost like your outrage is selective? Perhaps on...party lines? Also, how many tears did you shed for with that tax cut that services the wealthy?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  4. #404

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Yes, please tell me how my own government works, person who has not lived here.
    So we are only allowed to discuss affairs in countries in which we live?
    I understand why Trump is trying to push his pet project; that isn't really different than any other president. The problem for him is he doesn't have the political capital or mass support he needs to do it. So he needs to either give up, or cut deals to do it. The Democrats aren't beholden to his pet project, they are representing their own constituency.
    Democrats are just holding federal employees hostage for partisan brownie points. I mean its a "victory", but a rather symbolic one, given how it is likely to cost them next presidential election.
    The last war we actually conducted was started by a Republican president, so I don't know why you are calling Democrats out for lavish foreign spending. Foreign aid has never come close to war spending overseas. It is almost like your outrage is selective? Perhaps on...party lines? Also, how many tears did you shed for with that tax cut that services the wealthy?
    I was unaware that Obama (who was president during the time US helped Saudi-backed jihadists take over Libya) was a Republican, but now it all makes sense.

  5. #405

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So we are only allowed to discuss affairs in countries in which we live?
    Did I say anything remotely close to that? I didn't think so.

    I am saying it is silly to talk down to someone about their knowledge of a system they are much more intimate with than yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Democrats are just holding federal employees hostage for partisan brownie points. I mean its a "victory", but a rather symbolic one, given how it is likely to cost them next presidential election.
    Speaking of not knowing about American politics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I was unaware that Obama (who was president during the time US helped Saudi-backed jihadists take over Libya) was a Republican, but now it all makes sense.
    And you think that is anywhere on the level of cost of an actual invasion? Do you know how much an American soldier costs? You know there was another president before Obama, right? And that he started a much larger scale conflict, which the Republican constituency was very much in favor of.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  6. #406
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    So Trump seems to have lost. The Democrats were more willing than him to sacrifice the federal employees, or rather were content he was taking the blame for it. It seems some political cost is too much even for Teflon Trump. Will be interesting to see how his fragile ego manages that. Will he sink further in denial? Lash back somehow? I wonder if he has any credible advisers left that would enable a proper counterattack.

  7. #407

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by NorseThing View Post
    Now about that reduction in force idea...
    That can legitimately happen, as I understand it, when the federal agency is legitimately trying to save money. First they move the workers around to cheaper positions or other positions and remove the position. Then they just remove the workers. But the weird thing about the shutdown was the idea of floating the idea of RIFfing the workers during a shutdown. Such an "emergency furlough" as opposed to a "planned furlough"(these are hilariously technical terms in federal policies) would not allow for RIFfing workers. Now, if they plan furloughs to save money and it extends past a certain amount of time, then you might see the RIFs.

    When congress and and prez45 just get to being argumentative....the workers will get very worried about their next meal and rent check. And if it goes long enough, they'll be the ones to scare one party or another into opening the government up when LaGuardia shuts down. But be aware, the workers will not be and cannot be RIFfed for an emergency furlough.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #408

    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    So Trump seems to have lost. The Democrats were more willing than him to sacrifice the federal employees, or rather were content he was taking the blame for it. It seems some political cost is too much even for Teflon Trump. Will be interesting to see how his fragile ego manages that. Will he sink further in denial? Lash back somehow? I wonder if he has any credible advisers left that would enable a proper counterattack.
    Look at history. Newt's shutdown happened because he was an ass about how he was treated by Clinton(this was used to pressure him to open), but at the same time there were legitimate budget negotiations between Clinton and the Republicans as the government was shutdown for 21 days.

    Look at Cruz in 2013. Cruz held the government hostage for 16 days for a demand regarding the ACA, nothing more. And it was a demand. There was no negotiation, there could be no negotiation. To Cruz, give him what he wanted, or the government stayed shutdown. Eventually, every other Senator and Representative(or enough of them), said no more, and overruled him. What's more, Cruz parlayed this into good positioning in the Iowa caucuses. It was pure political branding for him. Not even something he was interested in. In 2019 it was Trump with a demand. A demand for 5.7 billion for his wall. No negotiation. Everything Trump sent them included 5.7 billion for his wall. For 35 days.

    You want me to at all feel sorry for Trump, he should have had ground to give. Otherwise Teflon Trump might still at least be Kevlar Trump. You don't give into these demands, or there will just be more shutdowns. Negotiation...fine. Demands? No.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  9. #409
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: US Government Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    You want me to at all feel sorry for Trump, he should have had ground to give. Otherwise Teflon Trump might still at least be Kevlar Trump. You don't give into these demands, or there will just be more shutdowns. Negotiation...fine. Demands? No.
    Feel sorry for Trump? Nah, don't go that far. I don't see why you would feel sorry for any of that lot. I do believe though that Trump did try to give sth, did try to sweeten the deal. His negotiating hand was simply not very strong. Thanks in no small part to his idiotic boasting about shutting down the government last year. And the opposition naturally took advantage of it. To the further detriment as usual of the people of course.

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