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Thread: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

  1. #61

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    No. Literally...All of those fall under any one of motive, means, and opportunity, and are not necessarily at any given moment a 'hate crime' aggravation.
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  2. #62
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Means motive and oppportunity are used to prove or disprove guilt you realise. An aggravating factor is different
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    AFAIK, and I’m no legal expert, but motive is generally only used to arise an intent, or prove an intent. It does not make the sentence worse, harsher or longer. Intent can have that affect however. Also, motive is not always required to convict.

    tldr motive generally only affects a guilty/innocent verdict, ergo the kind, but not scale of sentence.

    edit: https://www.justia.com/criminal/aggr...ating-factors/

    hate is the only motive that is ever used as an aggravating factor, in certain countries
    Having been asked to weigh in here, I'd comment that "hate crime" laws are generally dubious and given my training almost always federal offenses. The difference between federal and state laws are of course highly pertinent to this discussion and sadly most usually misconstrued. It is difficult to prove intent absent a blatant confession as to the intent to commit a crime on the basis of some legally protected class. Anyone who isn't a fanatic could easily dodge such a charge in a criminal proceeding. While I generally believe that the government should not try to convict people on the basis of what they are thinking, even when they commit a violent crime, I find myself on the side of "you're a dumbass" if people are willing to admit to such motivations. Such things must be uniformly applied however. The moronic concept that hate crimes can't be committed against whites/straight people/Christians, for example, must not be permitted to take root.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Means motive and oppportunity are used to prove or disprove guilt you realise. An aggravating factor is different
    ing hell dude. Let's go over this...your list of aggravating factors: (I've added info to it in underlined words)
    Aggravating factors

    Factors indicating higher culpability:


    • offence committed whilst on bail for other offences; (does not seem to tie into one of the three and is more a matter of timing)
    • failure to respond to previous sentences; (does not seem to tie into one of the three and is more a matter of timing)
    • offence was racially or religiously aggravated; motive
    • offence motivated by, or demonstrating, hostility to the victim based on his or her sexual orientation (or presumed sexual orientation); motive
    • offence motivated by, or demonstrating, hostility based on the victim’s disability (or presumed disability); motive
    • previous conviction(s), particularly where a pattern of repeat offending is disclosed; (matter of timing)
    • planning of an offence; means
    • an intention to commit more serious harm than actually resulted from the offence; means
    • offenders operating in groups or gangs; means, opportunity
    • ‘professional’ offending; motive
    • commission of the offence for financial gain (where this is not inherent in the offence itself); motive
    • high level of profit from the offence; motive
    • an attempt to conceal or dispose of evidence; means
    • failure to respond to warnings or concerns expressed by others about the offender’s behaviour;
    • offence committed whilst on licence; means (ie: offense under colour of authority)
    • offence motivated by hostility towards a minority group, or a member or members of it; motive
    • deliberate targeting of vulnerable victim(s); motive
    • commission of an offence while under the influence of alcohol or drugs;
    • use of a weapon to frighten or injure victim; means
    • deliberate and gratuitous violence or damage to property, over and above what is needed to carry out the offence;
    • abuse of power; means
    • abuse of a position of trust. means


    Factors indicating a more than usually serious degree of harm:


    • multiple victims; means, opportunity
    • an especially serious physical or psychological effect on the victim, even if unintended; means
    • a sustained assault or repeated assaults on the same victim;
    • victim is particularly vulnerable;
    • location of the offence (for example, in an isolated place); means, opportunity
    • offence is committed against those working in the public sector or providing a service to the public;
    • presence of others for example, relatives, especially children or partner of the victim;
    • additional degradation of the victim (for example, taking photographs of a victim as part of a sexual offence); motive, means
    • in property offences, high value (including sentimental value) of property to the victim, or substantial consequential loss (for example, where the theft of equipment causes serious disruption to a victim’s life or business).

    I mean, I'm just winging that. Some of them I'm not taking a WAG on, but some of them I'm willing to and a lot of them are pretty damn obvious what general part of the investigation they narrow down to. If you can't think motive, means, or opportunity can't lead to an aggravating factor, if the evidence is there to be found, you're downright unimaginative.
    Last edited by Gaidin; December 30, 2018 at 03:32 PM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  5. #65
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    You realise that convicting someone on the basis of ‘hate’ is the beginning of thought crime don’t you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    ing hell dude. Let's go over this...your list of aggravating factors: (I've added info to it in underlined words)
    I somewhat doubt these claims at the moment, unless there are some sources I could go on. I don’t think that’s how it works.
    Last edited by Aexodus; December 30, 2018 at 03:50 PM.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Your ability to psychically ascertain motives for crimes is truly god like. Not even our most acclaimed mediums can do what you have done. I myself am in awe, and I hope that most federal judges in the country are endowed with your clairvoyant gift in order to follow these sentencing guidelines.
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    Over rock and under tree,
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  7. #67

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    You realise that convicting someone on the basis of ‘hate’ is the beginning of thought crime don’t you?



    I somewhat doubt these claims at the moment, unless there are some sources I could go on. I don’t think that’s how it works.
    I am going to pull one piece of your list of 'aggravating factors'. Planning an offence. Let's pretend for a moment you have planned in detail and enacted an offence and police have found evidence of this detailed plan. Evidence of this aggravating factor is brought against you in court. It says nothing about your motive to commit the crime.

    It however does say quite a bit about means and possibly opportunity. That is simple logic. One doesn't need a god damn legal textbook to draw these connecting lines. You are being dense in this debate. You will either admit these connections or I am going to consider that you are not even worth discussing this with anymore.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #68
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    How is planning something means and opportunity?

    Means motive and opportunity are something else used in criminal investigation afaik.

    Can you give me a source.
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    And on the third day, God created the Remington bolt-action rifle, so that man could fight the dinosaurs. And the homosexuals. Amen.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Are there no Liberal Parties Anymore? Conservatives Clamp Down on Freedom

    Planning something tells how you're going to do it, possibly when depending on the level of detail. Not why. This ain't a manifesto. I don't need a source for this. This is general use of these very common words. Get your god damn straight and accept that you're wrong. You know what, you're adding 1 + 1 and getting the wrong type of 10. I'm done with you.
    Last edited by Gaidin; December 30, 2018 at 06:22 PM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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