Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

  1. #1
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    western usa
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad


    The worldhas changed. Some of our thinking is stalled with the economicassumptions predating the industrial revolution. Marx saw that therewas a very real risk of the rich industrialist class exploiting thepoor. Marx’s thoughts on this exploitation was a bit about makingthe rich better off at the expense of the workers not becoming betteroff in the exchange. Marx was partially in error, but he wasessentially correct at the margins. Economists understand that weall make decisions weighted more towards immediate benefits. Is itexploitation for one with acceptable immediate resources to notsimply maximize short run decisions and thus prefer the longer termgains? This is not exploitation. This is the basic economicdifference between how nearly all the poor behave versus nearly allthe wealthy. To a great degree, this is also why corporation canafford to take the longer term view with planning and allocation ofavailable resources. Again, is this what Marx was speaking ofregarding exploitation? If so then Marx is correct and myinterpretation of Marx and his use of ‘exploitation’ may be inerror. (If you wish, just read the last paragraph. This may be toodrawn out and boring.)


    An eliteclass holding power with land based wealth did not continue growth oftheir wealth and by extension their power. The economy was nowbecoming a cash based economy rather than an agrarian economy livingoff the land with minimal use of currency by the common man. Notevery land holder or even most land holders made the transition, butsome did make the attempt. The industrialists were a new elite classamong the educated, but not necessarily among the rich land owningclass of the elite. These industrialists were now becoming the newelite with growing governmental and judicial power.


    We see thiswith European nobility who did not see the future via the industrialrevolution. Raw material extraction and food production were going totake fewer workers as the steam based economy and then an oil basedeconomy took off. In the short run there was a certain boost inpeople handling the shovels and using their backs to move anddistribute materials such as coal. This was simply a short runexpedient for the industrialists as mechanization took root. This iswhat Marx saw as exploitation. The shift in population to towns fromfarms also meant a shift in power to the loss of the landed elites. This was not exploitation though as Marx saw it. The land basedwealthy were simply attempting to hold onto power as their wealthbase was diminishing over time. This was simple economics as therelative demand for land decreased relative to opportunities forreturns with mechanization. In the end, Marx missed his opportunityto see the real problem.


    The problemwas the laws protecting the landed wealthy were now being used toprotect industry. The very same type of change is now taking placewith unionized industrial workers and skilled union organizers andunion administrators. In a sense these people are the new landedgentry using the laws to protect their positions of power as itcontinues to erode away,


    The rule oflaw in an agrarian economy was not going to work as peopleconcentrated into the town areas as factory workers. Patents thatwere needed to encourage new ideas on the simple items such as a plowwere now tools of exploitation today by giving monopoly protectionfar in excess of what was needed to encourage developing new drugs. To give a profit on a few thousand production items was not the sameas protecting ideas that meant pennies of profit on each item whenover hundreds of millions of produced items as a result of a singleidea. A single medicinal pill may be simply a fraction of a penny ofpatent protected profit, but when translated over billions pills,this is a real power of law. Is this still the protection we need? Reward should never be at the perpetual expense of the future generalpopulation. Yes, some people are better off with the drug, but manyare not. Yet we have socialized the cost over the entire populationand continue to protect the drug patents.


    The Lord ofthe manor became courts and jails over time. The basic ideas of notkilling your fellow man were still moral imperatives to be enforced. The laws regarding theft and conversion of other people’s propertydid not substantially change from preindustrial revolution times, butperhaps the laws should change. And the changes need not be onesided. At the margins, people look at the short term benefits andare less concerned about the long term implications. Huge gains inwealth were made because of the tax system focused on tariffs ratherthat income assessment of taxes. Today’s tax system is morefocused on income. The patent protection has little to do withincome when the protections by amendment and updates can extend tothe very far future.


    Our currentthinking is that tariffs are a form of protectionism and thus shouldbe avoided. Intellectual property rights used to need the firmestand longest time terms of protection. A reasonable rate of returnused to need decades to be profitable enough to encourage the risk ofresearch that may or may not prove to be profitable. Today, Googleand FaceBook, among others, use these patents to make entry intotheir business fields difficult and yet are some of our largestcorporations on the Planet.


    Therevolution of the internet and cellular telephones is makingcompanies able to reduce costs by moving the intellectual rights fromcountries with weak protections on these intangible rights tocountries with firmer protections. The manufacturing of the physicalproducts can also be moved to countries with lowers costs ofproduction of the tangible products. Yet older workers cannot bequickly retrained as easily as production can be moved. How can aworker maintain their productive compensation without employerinvestments in their skill sets? Patent protection lasts nearlyforever and the workers are not protected and are simply allowed toage out of the system with declining incomes.


    Today wehave issues with tariffs on international trade partially as a resultof these aging workers losing their jobs as the economy changes. Thenation remains highly productive as the younger workers have theneeded new skills. The older workers are cast aside as we are seeingin the General Motors layoffs. Subsidies to the company did not savetheir jobs. Tariffs on assembled autos will not save their jobseither.


    Part of theproblem is an imbalance in international trade. Free trade is goodin the long run, but in the short run some sort of tariffs could be apotential and temporary solution. Specific tariffs such as on steelare not a good solution. Specific tariffs on companies are not a goodsolution for the same reasons. These give government administratorsplums to reward friends and punish enemies and thus are an inducementtowards corruption.. A better form of tariff would be against allimports from a country and assessed at predetermined rates based uponthe historic and expected future value of the trade imbalance. Sucha system of tariffs would need both announced starting conditions andending conditions before such tariffs could be initiated. This makesthe process less personal and less prone to corrupt practices. Eachcountry affected by such tariffs can then take actions in their owninterest to reduce the imbalance in international trade. Yes, thisis less efficient than open markets, but the markets are notcompletely open. Restrictions on movement of capital and peopleexist. Laws such as on labor can be used to create an imbalance intrade. Government manipulation of currency exchange rates are also aproblem. These and other problems should be left to the individualcountries to sort out. A country suffering an imbalance of trade canand should act alone via tariffs to help their own citizens.


    Both Keynesand Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as thealternatives. (Capitalism & Freedom, Milton Friedman, Universityof Chicago Press, 1962, Ch.3) Tariffs are a good tool when dealingwith the short term political problems involving older workers (whovote) when the problem is an imbalance in trade. Friedman discountedthis as a problem because the dollars were of no use to others if notspent, but the modern society allows foreign governments to hold thedollars as reserves. The dollar holdings are in lieu of atraditional commodity stockpile such as gold in the national vaultsto back the local paper currencies against speculation. A foreigncountry such as China can accumulate dollars or exchange them withthe Federal Reserve for treasury notes and with the notes still havea modest return on capital while partially backing their own papercurrency in circulation. The imbalance in trade can thus continuewith the aid by our own Federal Reserve. A general tariff on allimports from China might be sufficient to induce China to changetheir own trading policies so that the imbalance in trade disappears. The threat of future tariffs can avoided if other countries areaware that USA trade policy desires free and balanced trade. Tariffsare only a remedy to encourage changes in government policy so thattrade is in balance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    The basic mismatch between expectations and results of free-trade economic theories in the west stems from a cultural inability to realise the economic structure of a free trade world; such a world is bound to be dominated by China and India, and centre around the "old" eurasia-north africa area. This has been the default pattern of the world unless disrupted by massive historic changes like disease or invasion by "fringe" peoples (mongols, europeans) leveraging technological advantages to gain political control over these lands. These "outsiders" have then established their own empires, and enriched their own metropoles, but the money has come from these old lands. The post-soviet period saw a hugely confident "west" open up trade via globalistaion to the post-colonial third world. This confidence, bordering on arrogance, failed to see how these "s" could leverage this economic opportunity for their own gains. This is of course, exemplified by China's rise. I still remember Clinton laughing at Chinese attempts to control the internet; i wonder if he's still laughing. Despite huge liberal indignation, Trump's USA has inherently understood this fact; while i deeply detest Trump on a personal level, he does have the right idea for dealing with China ie: disrupt it's economic growth. The problem of course, is that the strategy is too little-too late. 20 years ago it might have worked, but today China has escaped the US orbit completely, and the US has destroyed it's own ability to compete with China by shifting industry outside it's borders, by converting it's citizens to consumers, by rewarding incompetent oligarchic corporate interests and military firms through lobbying, bailouts etc. and generally undermining other sectors where it enjoyed enormous leads (space, for example) in favour of financial markets. A trade war today would hurt the US far more, as it is primarily a market, and the onus of extra cost would fall onto the US consumer, while the US has few manufacturers who can compete with low cost of Asian manufactures and African and Eurasian raw materials. Thus other pressure is being applied, for example on Iran, and also massive military involvement in Africa, to try and control this other challenge to US primacy; but to no avail, as an independent China is able to counteract these activities with it's huge economy; like i said, it has completely escaped the US orbit. Thus again we come to the crux, ie: controlling Chinese economic growth. Soon we will see the US realise that only war can preserve it's primacy, and that is the reason that China (and everyone else) is arming themselves like crazy. Unfortunately, the truth i think, is that these realisations on the part of the "West" are really too late; China and the rest have stolen a march on the US and it's clients while they partied at "the end of history" club. The only real way to compete with China is to open up the west to massive immigration (especially empty North America) and address the massive demographic imbalance the US faces. And there Trump fails terribly, so again i don't really see any way out for the west to escape it's relative decline.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Interesting thread, I'm bumping now because I want to give you a proper reply tomorrow and I might forget as I'm off to sleep soon.

    Well fml. I made a long post, got logged out in the meanwhile and now it's lost.


    The core:

    I agree with anant on everything except the importance of GDP. Go back to 1800, right before being overrun by Western nations, China held 40% of the world GDP. Unfortunately we are run by a managerial class with their superficial indicators and they analyze everything through them. It's not even their worst mistakes, you are spot on on everything else.

    Back to the topic, here's the real issue with China's trade imbalance. What's money today? It's an IOU. You buy something and give it in exchange to settle the debt. The seller can use the legal tender to pay taxes to the state. That's it. That's the idea that holding up the monetary system right now. What is China doing? They sell goods, accumulate the legal tender then go back to the US and don't buy goods, they buy the whole industry. Trump saw that, while those trying to impeach him and listing Russia as a threat do not. It's also way too late as anant said. China can and will buy everything it needs in the US, bring back the technology and the jobs to China to enrich itself. By continuing this trend, the Chinese will de-facto be able to control the US economic system and run the country at their will.

    Anyone who has gone to university in the past two decades probably heard from a professor: ''with economic development, China will have to democratize''. This was based on the experiences of Japan and SK, but it was a superficial analysis that ignored the conditions by which that happened. It's the same mistake that's being repeated on immigration: ''problems will disappear by the second generation''. No. Send your kids to learn Mandarin, because the Chinese have already won the century.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; January 20, 2019 at 03:48 AM.

  4. #4
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    western usa
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Thanks for the response. Bad luck on the time out thing though.

    My point is not about GDP. but about visible trade balances. Investments in companies in the USA by China to a degree can indeed compensate for some imbalance, but in lmost all cases, the imbalance is 'balanced' by exchanging dollars for capital (usually in the form of Treasury notes courtesy of the Federal Reserve). But it can be in the form commercial paper or the purchase of not just stocks and bonds but also the hard assets. In whatever form this takes, it creates an imbalance in the use of labor by the USA importing the cost of labor via goods and thus local labor suffers. This is why Pres. Trump is on his tariff war with the Chinese and others. This is not a new idea with his presidency though. This is why Ross Perot and his big sucking sound against NAFTA was popular and why Trump at that time supported Ross Perot.

    The idea of free trade presupposes free movement of capital and free movement of labor. Since we do not have a free movement of these, then a country can only use a general tariff rate against countries that have policies that create this imbalance. Back to NAFTA -- If Mexico had placed a general tarrif on all manufactured goods, then with or without NAFTA, the mexican economy would have industrialized at about the rate (or perhaps faster) than achieved under NAFTA. And the industrialized would not have focused as mush on the border areas which became a lure for our illegal immigration problem from Mexico after NAFTA.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Our currentthinking is that tariffs are a form of protectionism and thus shouldbe avoided. Intellectual property rights used to need the firmestand longest time terms of protection. A reasonable rate of returnused to need decades to be profitable enough to encourage the risk ofresearch that may or may not prove to be profitable. Today, Googleand FaceBook, among others, use these patents to make entry intotheir business fields difficult and yet are some of our largestcorporations on the Planet.
    I'm not sure why you're linking tariffs with intellectual property. They're not similar. Intellectual property laws is simply a legal monopoly. Also, while it does make some logical sense, I don't think there's strong evidence hat IP laws hinder innovation. IP laws have been associated with increased R&D and more high-tech goods, but this suffers from confirmation bias. Places with strong IP laws typically have strong and developed economies. Also, the speed up of innovation and research has just as much with concentration of resources. Note that even the most backward anti-competitive Soviet Union, which provided very little private sector gain for innovation, produced a large number of technological and scientific discoveries, easily being the 2nd largest center of such works. Second only to the United States.

    Part of theproblem is an imbalance in international trade. Free trade is goodin the long run, but in the short run some sort of tariffs could be apotential and temporary solution. Specific tariffs such as on steelare not a good solution. Specific tariffs on companies are not a goodsolution for the same reasons. These give government administratorsplums to reward friends and punish enemies and thus are an inducementtowards corruption.. A better form of tariff would be against allimports from a country and assessed at predetermined rates based uponthe historic and expected future value of the trade imbalance. Sucha system of tariffs would need both announced starting conditions andending conditions before such tariffs could be initiated. This makesthe process less personal and less prone to corrupt practices. Eachcountry affected by such tariffs can then take actions in their owninterest to reduce the imbalance in international trade. Yes, thisis less efficient than open markets, but the markets are notcompletely open. Restrictions on movement of capital and peopleexist. Laws such as on labor can be used to create an imbalance intrade. Government manipulation of currency exchange rates are also aproblem. These and other problems should be left to the individualcountries to sort out. A country suffering an imbalance of trade canand should act alone via tariffs to help their own citizens.
    Markets are never open, but what forces "fairness" is a large number of competitors in a marketplace. I think you're also focusing on the wrong part of the equation when it comes to tariffs. The biggest criticism of tariffs that economists make is about free trade. But not because it hurts the world economy, but because it hurts individual economies. The biggest victim of steel tariffs isn't China or US companies who use cheap steel. It's US consumers who now have either more expensive products or less competition to choose from.

    Both Keynesand Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as thealternatives. (Capitalism & Freedom, Milton Friedman, Universityof Chicago Press, 1962, Ch.3) Tariffs are a good tool when dealingwith the short term political problems involving older workers (whovote) when the problem is an imbalance in trade. Friedman discountedthis as a problem because the dollars were of no use to others if notspent, but the modern society allows foreign governments to hold thedollars as reserves. The dollar holdings are in lieu of atraditional commodity stockpile such as gold in the national vaultsto back the local paper currencies against speculation. A foreigncountry such as China can accumulate dollars or exchange them withthe Federal Reserve for treasury notes and with the notes still havea modest return on capital while partially backing their own papercurrency in circulation. The imbalance in trade can thus continuewith the aid by our own Federal Reserve. A general tariff on allimports from China might be sufficient to induce China to changetheir own trading policies so that the imbalance in trade disappears. The threat of future tariffs can avoided if other countries areaware that USA trade policy desires free and balanced trade. Tariffsare only a remedy to encourage changes in government policy so thattrade is in balance.
    Both Keynes and Friedman were adamant that Tariffs are a solution without a problem. They claim that tariffs only serve to enrich interest groups and government, they're not solving anything because there is no problem to solve. Keynes is a bad person to look to when you're looking to discuss international trade. His position changed many times. Keynes primary contribution to economics was domestic policy. In fact, I think you will find pretty much every modern economist argue for open trade. What you will find fierce debate on, is how to deal with externalities of international trade.

  6. #6
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    western usa
    Posts
    3,041

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Keynes and Friedman argued that specific tariffs of specific goods were wrong. I even stated that I agreed that these were wrong and stated how they could be misused. I am arguing for a general tariff related in some manner to national goods trade be used. Not the same. I think my position is consistent with why Keynes believed it was a better than other available solutions for a single country to act against any imbalance other than a temporary imbalance created by market forces. I suspect this may even be what Pres. Trump is acting on, but has not clearly stated as his goal. Of course, I have not clearly stated it either, if this has been misunderstood.

  7. #7
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Middle freaking east
    Posts
    7,779

    Default Re: Keynes and Friedman believed tariffs were bad, but not as bad as the alternatives

    Whether tariffs are bad or not depends on how you view the world. The neo-liberal movement wanted to create maximum efficiency where each factor of production could go to where it gets the most return from.
    It essentially wanted a world beyond national borders.
    And the experiences in the west of massive economic integration(NAFTA, EU and other more minor integrations), combined with the fall of an ALTERNATIVE system(USSR) encouraged this belief.
    There was no threat, and everybody simply stood to GAIN on the long-run from world's overall efficiency growth(though on the short run, there will always be losers in trade from changing barriers).

    China, while growing, did not appear as an alternative to the world order. And Russia was still rotting from inside from an outdated economic model and dying demography(granted, Russia is still on this path, and they are racing against time as renewables grow and Shale revolution changes the energy sector).

    This seemed like the only reality for such a long time that no one really cared about China's technology stealing or trade tricks.
    The economic transformation, in a world where you do not see "countries" happens on the basis of specific SPACE/GEOGRAPHY.
    We talk of China's or USA's trade, but the real trade happens between..saaay, Shenzen, and Silicon Valley, or Detroit and Munich.


    As long as geopolitical power play does not come in, all consumers win from such openings.

    The imbalance can only start at a point where the trade was based on significant technological difference. And if the leading country is not innovating anymore, they'll lose more and more spaces of high-value-added production share (see; much of the western world)

    When the trade deals were made back in 80s/90s, it was more like a win-win distribution for all as the whole system integrated.

    What we are seeing now is the movement of assets within an integrated system to different geographies.
    And more and more, the world is starting to notice that "geographies" are located in COUNTRIES in the end. And as the dying politics of nation-states are coming back in with increased nationalism, especially from the fact that China never quiet integrated(as in becoming a mere geogpraphy of production like the neoliberals expected), the trust the neo-liberal system tried to build is coming down.

    It first dies as an ideology(euroskpectics, new right wing, left wing populists,Brexit, Chinese or Russian state nationalism etcetc) and then it turns into physical barriers. That is, tariffs or other softer regulations.

    In short, I identify 2 major issues:
    1. Back in 1990s, the West did not realize that technological gap between economic space of West and Developing countries would be closed. They were, naturally, too optimistic about the future of the world following the USSR's fall.
    2. Related to first point, they thought just as Germany or Japan was "absorbed" into the liberal system, the rest too will come in. And by that time, no one would care which country had this or that production because the world would have been that integrated and there wouldn't be any means for politicians(the populists) to use losses as reasons for international conflict.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •