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Thread: [Decision] Move the Curia

  1. #1

    Default [Decision] Move the Curia

    Move the Curia to the Administrative Forum

    Very simple, subtle change but should be a significant impact. Move the Curia to the Administrative Forums. This will return the Curia to the forum to the original location. Have doubts, look here.

    The move is designed;
    + To promote that the Curia for the sharing and suggesting of site improvements.
    + To fosters a more cooperative spirit between citizens and the administration.

    The obvious argument; would this make a difference? There is no telling, but it is a small step towards bettering the site.

  2. #2
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    The link you posted is part of the history on TWC.

    I would like to extend this proposal to also include moving the CCT along with other Curia related threads from the Q & S subforum into The Capital forum as a separate Curial Commentary subforum, while the other subforum is the Curia, similar to what the Tribunal has today.

    The Capital - Curial Commentary subforum

    Administration
    • The Capital - Curia
    • The Capital - Curial Commentary


    Tribunal - Commentary subforum


    Support.
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    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
    Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?



  4. #4
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
    Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?
    It is not a sake of a change and Hader's Curial Overhaul Order 66 proposal is something I see as inevitable, unless someone can present a damn good reason why Hader's proposal aren't necessary.
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Oppose.

    What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.

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  6. #6
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.
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  7. #7
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    I don't believe Pike's suggestion would harm us but I also think Settra is correct. Isn't the Curia more visible and accessible now ?

  8. #8
    Hitai de Bodemloze's Avatar 避世絕俗
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Not really seeing a need for this. I also don't like the implication that the Curia's sole function is administrative. Having a dedicated area for citizens gives us better scope to do other things.

  9. #9
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Greek Strategos♔ View Post
    Isn't the Curia more visible and accessible now ?
    Only for citizens at the moment. Of course for non-Citizens too, read-only, who even care about what is going on in the Curia.

    There is also another reason why this change wouldn't hurt to do aside from Hader's proposal and it is what GED outlined here.

    I know it's a 4 years old thread, but some of it is already included in Hader's Curial Overhaul Order 66 proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Oppose.

    What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.
    Gents, I think both of you need to present a lot better argument than this. Because Curia will be equally accessible whether it's inside the Adminstraion fora or it stays here as it is now.

    Sure, Curia has better visibility, but that's irrelevant to what it is best for TWC.
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  10. #10
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Oppose.

    What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.
    Yet you and many others still oppose opening the Proth in some fashion or another. Funny that.

    ---

    Anyways, I'm here to say that since the similar comments in my thread about forum movements, I've talked some more with Hex about more of that and some other forum cleanup to go with it. The moving of the Curia is on the table for that. I'll be posting that addition to my proposal as well as any other edits hopefully later today. Perhaps it will be in line with this, though it also does more than just move the Curia as well.

  11. #11
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    "Opposed for the sake of opposing"... Or just plain old opposed... Its a mystery!

    - A

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    The link you posted is part of the history on TWC.
    I would like to extend this proposal to also include moving the CCT along with other Curia related threads from the Q & S subforum into The Capital forum as a separate Curial Commentary subforum, while the other subforum is the Curia, similar to what the Tribunal has today.
    The Capital - Curial Commentary subforum
    Administration
    • The Capital - Curia
    • The Capital - Curial Commentary

    Tribunal - Commentary subforum
    Support.
    For now, I rather keep this simple. I hope I still have your support for the first step.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Opposed. It just seems like change for the sake of change.
    Sure it probably wouldn't do anything negative, but I don't see how it'd do anything positive either so whats the point?
    How is this "change for the sake of Change when I started to intended goals for that change? I have never proposed anything that just makes a change with no desired effect of that change. That would be a terrific waste of time.
    The positive is to send a clear message that the Curia is the place to make a change. Right now, despite changing the description, still view as a place people go to role- play. We need to change that image.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Zandt View Post
    Oppose.
    What the Curia needs is an injection of fresh ideas and energy that new members would bring to it.
    Yes, exactly,.1. Patronize active contributing members. I found three of my last 4 by simply chatting on the forum; Jurand of Cracow, Slyk, Daruwind, zoner16. Slyke is an active modder for NTW and not recently another member was patronized for modding an old game. There are embers everywhere.
    2. As I mentioned above, the Curia in the Administratie forum would send a clear message that the Curia is the place to suggest a change. The "Capital" sounds like a playhouse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Opposed. The Curia is far more visible and accessible here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitai de Bodemloze View Post
    Not really seeing a need for this. I also don't like the implication that the Curia's sole function is administrative. Having a dedicated area for citizens gives us better scope to do other things.

    NOW ______________________________
    CAPITAL
    Curia
    ______________________________
    SUPPORTING TWC
    Official TWCStore
    ______________________________
    ADMINISTRATION
    Questions and suggestion
    etc...
    ______________________________

    AFTER ______________________________
    SUPPORTING TWC
    Official TWCStore
    ______________________________
    ADMINISTRATION
    Curia
    Questions and suggestion
    etc...
    ______________________________
    Quick side note. I would move the store at the bottom of the Admin forum and have a link to the store at the top of the right column.

    Anyway, it is still there, except now it is in a location that the Curia is actually something worth being a part of, rather than some separate entity altogether.
    The description makes it clear what the Curia is; A Citizens only forum for the discussion of proposals for the betterment of the site and nominations for citizenship, awards, and elections.
    Citizenship becomes more purposeful and meaningful since the placement puts citizens as stakeholders of the site.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Yet you and many others still oppose opening the Proth in some fashion or another. Funny that.
    Anyways, I'm here to say that since the similar comments in my thread about forum movements, I've talked some more with Hex about more of that and some other forum cleanup to go with it. The moving of the Curia is on the table for that. I'll be posting that addition to my proposal as well as any other edits hopefully later today. Perhaps it will be in line with this, though it also does more than just move the Curia as well.
    One step at a time.
    If I recall, your movement results in devaluation of citizenship. In which I responded that people should patronize worthy citizens. I made the same point here. My patron would say (in regards to large awards) that one does not have to shoot lightning bolts out to earn the award (paraphrase). This puts citizenship standards into greater focus; you only need to contribute in a way that it is a significant investment of your time. As long as someone demonstrates ideal behavior, then there is no reason, even with less activity, that we cannot have double if not triple the applications. If you participate in this Curia and you have less than 3 clients, then ask yourself why? Especially if you advocate opening up the Curia. If you want new blood and you are not patronizing, then that mirror should tell you something.

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    I don't see what this would accomplish.
    The Armenian Issue

  14. #14
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    One step at a time.
    If I recall, your movement results in devaluation of citizenship. In which I responded that people should patronize worthy citizens. I made the same point here. My patron would say (in regards to large awards) that one does not have to shoot lightning bolts out to earn the award (paraphrase). This puts citizenship standards into greater focus; you only need to contribute in a way that it is a significant investment of your time. As long as someone demonstrates ideal behavior, then there is no reason, even with less activity, that we cannot have double if not triple the applications. If you participate in this Curia and you have less than 3 clients, then ask yourself why? Especially if you advocate opening up the Curia. If you want new blood and you are not patronizing, then that mirror should tell you something.
    I've patronized plenty in the past, many having done a ton of great work in modding and/or staff. But how many of my clients, or their own, come to the curia to actively contribute? Relatively few. Though many still do a lot with their respective modding or staff work.

    Patronizing more does not translate to just more curial activity, let alone worthwhile curial participation in anything staff or site related. Pretty much and modding or staff related venture on this site is in no way made better or easier by being a citizen now. So how is patronizing more people who already do this stuff going to ever change that?

    There is a disconnect that isn't going to be fixed by just more patronizations. And while I even agree with this proposal to just get the Curia out of this Capitol category and move it with other administrative forums, alone that sort of move is more cosmetic than anything. You may want it to show to people the Curia is a super serial place of site administration, but placing it in that category to give that impression doesn't actually make it so, and if that's somehow what it took to spur people into some new golden age of curial involvement in the site in a meaningful way, I would honestly be more disappointed than proud that that is all it took.

    I support the idea for the move, but along with the ideas in my proposal, I think the move is essentially pointless in the long run without other substantial change. Hence why I included it in my proposal with everything else and would prefer to see it all pass together still. If my proposal wasn't a thing, or it does fail vote, I would still be fine with this idea and move here and support it, though I would have no faith in it actually mattering long term.



    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Quick side note. I would move the store at the bottom of the Admin forum and have a link to the store at the top of the right column.

    Anyway, it is still there, except now it is in a location that the Curia is actually something worth being a part of, rather than some separate entity altogether.
    The description makes it clear what the Curia is; A Citizens only forum for the discussion of proposals for the betterment of the site and nominations for citizenship, awards, and elections.
    Citizenship becomes more purposeful and meaningful since the placement puts citizens as stakeholders of the site.
    The store may be moved to a hidden area, or at least out of its own category, regardless. It will probably be moved there anyways if kept public.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I've patronized plenty in the past, many having done a ton of great work in modding and/or staff. But how many of my clients, or their own, come to the curia to actively contribute? Relatively few. Though many still do a lot with their respective modding or staff work.

    Patronizing more does not translate to just more curial activity, let alone worthwhile curial participation in anything staff or site related. Pretty much and modding or staff related venture on this site is in no way made better or easier by being a citizen now. So how is patronizing more people who already do this stuff going to ever change that?

    There is a disconnect that isn't going to be fixed by just more patronizations. And while I even agree with this proposal to just get the Curia out of this Capitol category and move it with other administrative forums, alone that sort of move is more cosmetic than anything. You may want it to show to people the Curia is a super serial place of site administration, but placing it in that category to give that impression doesn't actually make it so, and if that's somehow what it took to spur people into some new golden age of curial involvement in the site in a meaningful way, I would honestly be more disappointed than proud that that is all it took.

    I support the idea for the move, but along with the ideas in my proposal, I think the move is essentially pointless in the long run without other substantial change. Hence why I included it in my proposal with everything else and would prefer to see it all pass together still. If my proposal wasn't a thing, or it does fail vote, I would still be fine with this idea and move here and support it, though I would have no faith in it actually mattering long term.

    The store may be moved to a hidden area, or at least out of its own category, regardless. It will probably be moved there anyways if kept public.
    Hader, you could at least try to understand the point I am trying to make.

    + To promote that the Curia for the sharing and suggesting of site improvements.
    + To fosters a more cooperative spirit between citizens and the administration.
    It is pretty clear that I am not suggesting in any way that this proposal alone will have a major impact. It is a step in the direction of bringing back the original concept of the Curia which has been lost for some time now.

    Secondly, I have patronized plenty and most do not participate, but that is the point I am making.
    Members see no value in the Curia has a place for suggesting a change. Most either lose interest or not bother. You have to consider the reputation of the Curia. This is a theme that is repeated over and over again. Opening up the proth will not change this perception at all. If you want to add value to citizenship then you have to value citizen's input. As it is right now, the site does not in any way promote that. if anything, it discourages it.

  16. #16
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    + To promote that the Curia for the sharing and suggesting of site improvements.
    + To fosters a more cooperative spirit between citizens and the administration.
    It is pretty clear that I am not suggesting in any way that this proposal alone will have a major impact. It is a step in the direction of bringing back the original concept of the Curia which has been lost for some time now.

    Secondly, I have patronized plenty and most do not participate, but that is the point I am making.
    Members see no value in the Curia has a place for suggesting a change. Most either lose interest or not bother. You have to consider the reputation of the Curia. This is a theme that is repeated over and over again. Opening up the proth will not change this perception at all. If you want to add value to citizenship then you have to value citizen's input. As it is right now, the site does not in any way promote that. if anything, it discourages it.
    Then present a valid argument why open up the Prothalamos to all members does not have the effect that Hader proposed for the Prothalamos.

    Do we, the active citizens in the Curia, know that TWC will be better as soon a citizen partonized a member and that member, now as a citizen, will propose something that's good for TWC?

    To answer that question. Nope, I don't think so.


    Which brings us to Hader's Curia Overhaul proposal and one change for the Curia is about open up the Prothalamos to all members. I think doing that is in the right direction to actually to promote the value of suggesting improvements for TWC, perhaps let suggestions from a non-citizen be something that citizens need to take into consideration when it comes to partonizing members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    And where has that gotten us in the past few years? I realize you do quite well in looking for that new blood, but the overall stagnation of the curia in recent years doesn't show to me that just patronizing more people is in any way helping enough to matter on its own. I wonder what the number of new citizens is on average that apply and are accepted and have had no prior staff work as part of their resume? I feel it would be low. I could be wrong, but my perception is more people have staff work as part of their resume, meaning they are already doing something for the site before even being in the curia. So what does patronization do for them besides a shiny new badge?

    I knew I would be met with a lot of resentment towards this particular item, and even so it still sorta irks me how many people care so much about this in this way. The Curia right now offers little reason for anyone to want to be part of it other than it maybe being a fun little way to pass time in some debate and banter among other citizens. Patronization is little more than the process to getting your first Curial award right now. It doesn't guarantee anyone will be able to be more productive in any way, especially if they were staff before. And I see little about all the discussions in the Proth that screams "higher standards" or "wow I can get so much done there!". We keep trying to incentivize people to want to become citizens with no reason other than the sake of becoming a citizens.

    I don't say open the Proth because I aim to devalue everyone's citizenship, but to break down one important barrier of potential participation in a way that could better lead to the Curia having a better helpful presence on the site and maybe even give a decent incentive for people to want to become not just citizens, but active citizens.

    I'm not sure I've expressed this properly here, but overall I am just sick and tired of this bit about the value of citizenship. We either make it something to value beyond the shiny badge or its pointless IMO. If current citizens would stop valuing their citizenship for the badge its worth and instead look towards how it can actually be useful, we may get somewhere. I think opening the Proth is a step in the right direction, or if I am wrong, will at least have a good chance of showing us where the right direction is.

    Not all of the above is directed at you personally Pike, I'm speaking/soapboxing pretty generally there.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Then present a valid argument why open up the Prothalamos to all members does not have the effect that Hader proposed for the Prothalamos.
    This isn't a valid discussion point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Do we, the active citizens in the Curia, know that TWC will be better as soon a citizen partonized a member and that member, now as a citizen, will propose something that's good for TWC?
    To answer that question. Nope, I don't think so.
    The point made is that any active member of the site that is interested in or is invested in the site most likely would be eligible for citizenship. Moreover, there are more than enough former citizens and current citizens not participating int eh Curia. A valid proposal would at least address this issue, which none do. This proposal is a "step" in that direction in that it promotes the Curia has a place for presenting ideas for the betterment of the site.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

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  19. #19

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Oppose on the basis of remembering when it was there. If the Curia had executive powers over more then itself then it would be fitting, but if it doesn't then it would only serve to confuse the general membership.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: [Decision] Move the Curia

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Oppose on the basis of remembering when it was there. If the Curia had executive powers over more then itself then it would be fitting, but if it doesn't then it would only serve to confuse the general membership.
    This is precisely why I object whenever someone claims I am trying to bring back the "golden age." Even though the Curia was referred to as a "government" in its beginnings, it was a poor analogous approach. The site cannot function as a "government," despite references to the Roman Republic notwithstanding. The reference is cursory at best. At least, it ought to be. In the past, I have advocated for renaming the Constitution to "site by-laws" (or something cute and Roman sounding, why not, its history). The site by nature is a business. Citizenship is a significant stakeholder. In other words, a significant member that has given both their time and effort thus invested in the success of the site.

    The site is dependent on these contributors and their feedback as "pillars" of the community. In return, they are expected to be exemplary members of the site. As committed stakeholders, they become a part of the administration of the site for reason stated. The Curia outside of the admin suggests something else entirely. Is there a functional difference between the Q&S forum and the Curia forum? Yet, one is removed from the administration of the site even though membership suggests a far more invested member in order to actively participate. As history has shown, very little suggestion from Q&S, so it is unlikely that it will ever serve that purpose. Most, if any at all, come from the Curia, but it is underused and unrecognized as a means for that purpose.

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