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Thread: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

  1. #141
    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthFox View Post
    I'm not sure about voting on the intent of the amendment vs the express proposed wording changes to the Constitution. I'd like to hear what others think about this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    Does having that information in the footnotes not suffice then? I tried to keep most stuff within the main body syntax as short and sweet as possible (at least as much so for someone who rambles on like myself...) in the spirit of the condensed version of the constitution and having many footnotes to help expand ideas further. I've been explicit in some details for footnotes, and left some of it up to editor discretion for wording and which footnotes may actually require amending from it, though I think I hit all the important ones that would need changes even so.
    Putting it in the main text is not necessary, but I think for this particular piece of information I'd put it in the main text anyway. If this goes into the main text, that will mean the number of Praefects is being treated the same way as the number of Censors, and it seems logical to do both things the same way. It also doesn't hurt to make it easy to find (and regardless of the fact that the footnotes are as binding as the main text, my experience is that people frequently don't bother reading footnotes).

    If you do add it to the main text, you could just add a bit to Article II in item 1, so that the second paragraph says "The Curator acts as a local moderator of the Curia and is responsible for ensuring the Curia's day-to-day tasks are accomplished. Two Censors, appointed by the Curator, assist with Curial tasks and review referrals from Curial infractions..11 Magistrates review Moderation actions in the Tribunal. and Censors the conduct of citizens The Primus Praefect and the two Praefects are the full moderators of the Curia and its related forums.7"

    (I've just added the words "The Primus Praefect and the two" to what was already there in the last sentence of that.)


    Just in passing, presumably the heading of Section III should be changed to something that doesn't include Censors?


    It occurred to me that there was a small problem with this part of the wording (I've taken out the edit formatting to make it easier to read):
    If a referral has merit, the Praefects requests a defence3 from the referred and decides4 whether5 and which6 disciplinary action is to be taken.7 It consists of:
    There's nothing for the 'It' in the last sentence to refer to. (In the current version of the Constitution, that 'It' refers to the Triumvirate.) Since the group in question doesn't consist only of Praefects (the Curator/Consul, Censors and Hex are also listed as part of the group), we need the group to be called something, or we need to word things differently. I've done a new version that goes back to using the word 'Triumvirate' for the whole group of people who can be involved in the discussion of referrals. Obviously a new title could be used instead, or this could be reworded a different way - really this is just to try and show what I thought the problem was. (I've marked just the bits I've changed from the current draft, to make it obvious which bits I've changed.)

    Section III - Censors and Magistrates
    Article I. The Triumvirate and ReferralsCitizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Praefects for a review of their behaviour and possible disciplinary action.
    Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens2 for behaviour considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous. If a referral has merit, the Praefects requests request a defence3 from the referred and pass the referral and defence to the Triumvirate, which decides4 whether5 and which6 disciplinary action is to be taken.7 It The Triumvirate consists of:
    • The Praefects - Who discuss and vote on every Referral except in the case of infractions issued on Citizens for a Curial post, where the Curator and Censors will act in place of the Praefects. Primus Praefect holds the tiebreaking vote if necessary.
    • The Curator and Censors - Who may discuss Referrals, but hold no vote, except in the case of infractions issued on citizens in a Curial post, where they will act in place of Praefects. as set out above.
    • Hexagon Council members - Who may choose to participate.

    Praefects, censors and the consul must recuse themselves in their own referrals or any case of a non-curial infraction they may have issued elsewhere as a site moderator.8

    If a Citizen is not satisfied with the result of their Referral, they may request a public appeal. The appeal will be discussed and decided in the Curia.9 The result is binding and is not subject to further appeal.


    If I've got it right, the version in the contentbox below is the wording above, but showing the difference between that wording and the current Constitution rather than the difference between the wording above and Hader's current draft.
    Constitutional Syntax Changes
    Section III - Censors and Magistrates
    Article I. The Triumvirate and ReferralsCitizens are expected to behave in an exemplary manner and can be referred1 to the Triumvirate Praefects for a review of their behaviour and possible disciplinary action.
    Such a Referral is initiated automatically by Moderation for infractions incurred, or discretionally by Citizens2 for behaviour considered unbecoming. Praefects may decide if a referral is frivolous. The Triumvirate If a referral has merit, the Praefects requests request a defence3 from the referred and pass the referral and defence to the Triumvirate, which decides4 whether5 and which6 disciplinary action is to be taken.7 It The Triumvirate consists of:
    • The Censors Praefects - Who discuss and vote on every Referral except in the case of infractions issued on Citizens for a Curial post, where the Curator and Censors will act in place of the Praefects. Primus Praefect holds the tiebreaking vote if necessary.
    • The Curator and Censors - Who may discuss Referrals, but only votes in the case of a tie.hold no vote, except in the case of infractions issued on citizens in a Curial post, as set out above.
    • Hexagon Council members - Who may choose to participate.

    Members of the Triumvirate Praefects, censors and the consul must recuse themselves in their own referrals or any case of a non-curial infraction they may have issued elsewhere as a site moderator..8

    If a Citizen is not satisfied with the result of their Referral, they may request a public appeal. The appeal will be discussed and decided in the Curia.9 The result is binding and is not subject to further appeal.


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  2. #142
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I think I've established at least for me that I do not see it as devaluing citizenship. The value of citizenship is going to differ from person to person, as well as the perception of it objectively even, and posting rights in the proth I can see to a small extent being pretty objectively valuable, but is still pretty much up to the individual how far to take that value if at all. I definitely do not see it a valuable anymore.
    You are referring to intrinsic value, I am pointing out extrinsic value.
    The right of participation regardless if exercise is still a benefit given to citizens. It was the entire point in creating citizenship. Citizenship was created to promote activity and the carrot was participation in helping to determine the direction of the site. If you remove this benefit, then you remove the proverbial carrot for becoming a citizen. I cannot speculate why you cannot see that.

    It is amazing that so many members do not understand what made this site popular and why it continues to lose favor.

    Once upon a time, members became citizens cannot wait for the opportunity to patronize themselves. Now, it thanks to you sir,... and see ya!. Instead of looking for ways to restore that culture, we work to destroy it.


    As far as the rest. I think I prefer the Consul to moderate the Curia. We don't need THREE and we already have Censors to vote on referrals. A far more simple process and one that will advert the endless editing as this convoluted proposal will instill.
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  3. #143
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    No, you're just asserting that your personal intrinsic value is actually extrinsic (whatever that may mean) while discarding everyone else's value as intrinsic and thus for some reason irrelevant.

    There is, however, no objective, „extrinsic“ value, only intrinsic, subjective value. The majority opinion of what this value is is the closest we get to an objective value of citizenship.
    Last edited by Iskar; February 03, 2019 at 08:25 AM.
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  4. #144
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Support
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  5. #145
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    I like Caillagh's suggestions, especially regarding the cleanup by retaining the term Triumvirate. It also makes sense as either way you'll have a body of three reviewers (Primus Prefect and two other prefects, or Consul and two censors). I'm also slightly biased as the original idea of a Triumvirate was mine.

    I know all these edits are painful, but ultimately I think they are beneficial.

  6. #146
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar Bearded Moderation
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    I also find Calliagh's suggestions quite sensible. Support!

  7. #147
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    If Hader reject everything in Caillagh's suggestion then this amendment could be closed and never been discussed again for at least 5 years.

    Seriously, I agree to what StealthFox and Greek Strategos said. Support!






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  8. #148
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Just let it go to the vote already




  9. #149
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Well, large proposals have a habit of becoming mired in endless compromises. personally, I would be fine with a modest compromise. Proposed only the Prefect part.
    Personally, I think the Consul is more than capable of handling any issue and would be in favor of any proposal that makes that explicitly clear. If we want "moderators" (Prefects), then, by all means, have them enforce both the Code of Conduct and ToS. Leave the triumvirate to deal with referrals that deal with the code of conduct and then have any ToS follow the current procedure as well. I do not see any need to have an "overseer." The Consul can oversee their responsibilities.
    Also, just rename the Assistant, Curia Assistants.

    Or

    Elect a third Censor (rename them prefects) call the assistants censors. Have the issuing censor (Prefect) not judge their own issue referrals. The procedure is the same as above.

    There is, guilty of my own crime.... an alt proposal.

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  10. #150
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

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  11. #151
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    I would, at this time, like to reaffirm my opposition to this proposal.
    Last edited by Van Zandt; February 10, 2019 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Someone please think of the children!

  12. #152
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    The name of triumvirate and some minor edits I've made, much else beyond that either didn't make much sense to me or felt like it made little difference, I think the wording is at least good enough at this point to (if this passes) allow the consul to make any necessary changes to it to make sense without it altering the intent of it at all.

    If there is nothing else from anyone in some time, we can prep to move to vote, if support needs reaffirming more first let me know, otherwise with no other change/discussion for probably change I intend to move to vote in a few days/as soon as eligible.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Support.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Reaffirming my support, in case it's needed for the changes
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  15. #155
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    OPPOSED (again)

    Prefects are unnecessary
    Citizenship should be built up, not torn down. (there is a reason people came to TWC and not Org.)
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  16. #156
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    SUPPORT (again)

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  17. #157
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    If eligible for move to vote at any time in the next few days, this may be moved to vote (I'm gone at work during these next few days)

  18. #158
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    Default Re: [Amendment(s)] Curial Overhaul Order 66

    Proposal moved to Vote Here

    Good luck.
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