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Thread: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

  1. #21
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Finally racism can also be defined as a violent hostility against a social group
    The UN is incorrect, unless that violence is because of race.

    Who’s being violently hostile towards Muslims exactly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The UN is incorrect, unless that violence is because of race.

    Who’s being violently hostile towards Muslims exactly?
    Well, you would say that...

    I can see the headlines now: Far/Alt-Right guy defends Islamophobia SHOCK HORROR!!!

    Rather than simply disagreeing for the sake it. How about trying to justify your position with supporting text and sources? After all, that is how debate works...

  3. #23
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Um, alt-right, sure I am. I luurve David Duke like, top bloke.

    Racism:

    Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
    ‘a programme to combat racism’
    The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    ‘theories of racism’
    The UN definition is polluted by politics. Wikipedia notes: “As of the 2000s, the use of the term "racism" does not easily fall under a single definition.”

    The proper meaning in my opinion is the one I posted. If it has a large range of meanings, the word becomes meaningless, so I suggest you and others stop describing Islam criticism as racism.

    In fact, the original meaning:

    It was first defined by the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd edition, 1989) as "[t]he theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race"; the same dictionary termed racism a synonym of racialism: "belief in the superiority of a particular race".


    And Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

    Sam Harris nails it.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-aslan/381411/

    “Islam is not a race, ethnicity, or nationality: It’s a set of ideas," Harris told me. "Criticism of these ideas should never be confused with an animus toward people. And yet it is. I’m convinced that this is often done consciously, strategically, and quite cynically as a means of shutting down conversation [on] important topics.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Sam Harris is obviously racist against Muslims, which includes the thousands of people who convert genetically to Islam every year via CRISPR.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    It literally isn't a fact. Islamophobia certainly is racism, the UN agrees with me too...

    http://www.unesco.org/new/en/social-...ossary/racism/
    UN is an organization whose security council is led by Saudi Arabia. Nobody should care what UN says. The term racism is based on race, otherwise one can say you can be racist against sports fans or people who like country music.

    Here are some other eminent sources that also disagree with you (in case you think the UN are lefty snowflakes or something).

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-muslim-racism

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...semantics-word

    http://news.rice.edu/2017/09/14/isla...l-intolerance/
    See above. Racism can only be about race. Defining criticism of Islam as racist seems like belief in "patriarchy", "white privelge" and other neo-marxist nonsense.

  6. #26
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    No, wait, it would just be like saying:

    "I don't have any racial problem with Muslims but, seen that during the current year 2018 AD 'there were 1820 Islamic attacks in 53 countries, in which 10784 people were killed and 10802 injured'(*) I don't want my country accepts Muslim immigrants anymore.".

    Of course this would not be racism, because actually this is just common sense.
    It may be worryingly common, but it's definitely not sensible. In fact, you got it precisely backwards. The conclusion demands not the percentage of attacks committed by muslims but the percentage of muslims committing attacks.

    Not that I'm a muslim apologist. I think their fantasies are as daft as those of christians, and one can only hope they die out sooner rather than later. In the mean time, trying to keep them from infecting policy is the best I can hope for.

    Sure, it's a bit of a setback that just when christian politics are on the way out, we get to deal with another batch of brainwashed drones, but history shows the best way to overcome it is to let it die a quiet death rather than to try to stamp it out by force. Unless .... you feel your worldview is going to lose the battle of minds. Understandable for christians to feel that way, I suppose. I don't think humanists have to worry as much.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 30, 2018 at 03:38 PM.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Papay, would you care to post the hate-tweet accounts from the far left? Just in the UK the anti-semitism? the death and rape threats directed against Tory mps?

    I find it a bit hypocritical when I see a thread labeled "right" or "left"

    I'd have more respect for a thread entitled "political hate speech, what should be done?" tht shows how BOTH political extremes are increasingly malicious.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    No, wait, it would just be like saying:

    "I don't have any racial problem with Muslims but, seen that during the current year 2018 AD 'there were 1820 Islamic attacks in 53 countries, in which 10784 people were killed and 10802 injured'(*) I don't want my country accepts Muslim immigrants anymore.".

    Of course this would not be racism, because actually this is just common sense, but since I know well that the war between liberals (sorry!) and common sense is far from being concluded, being not Don Quixote, I don't insist on the subject.


    Side note: I still don't see why you go on quoting the Jews but .. also in this case, I don't insist.
    Are you choosing to ignore that the vast majority of those attacks and deaths are in muslim countries and due to sectarian violence? Or are you finaly admitting that the IRA and UVF are christian terrorists?

  9. #29
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Eh, the troubles aren’t a religious conflict.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Eh, the troubles aren’t a religious conflict.
    Neither are the sectarian conflicts in the muslim world

  11. #31
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    There’s a good argument for that. The middle east is not homogeneous far from it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Why do you think whataboutism is a response?
    So no objection to my statement? He who is silent consents. Very good
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  13. #33
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Well, well. Islamophobia is the first level of sharia law. Never criticize nor question Islam, but ...
    Just hidden behind leftist political-correctness.

    BTW if you feel offended by these Posts, sue the offenders. For this you do have a state of law.

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  14. #34

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    Well, well. Islamophobia is the first level of sharia law.
    What?

    Never criticize nor question Islam, but ...
    Just hidden behind leftist political-correctness.
    There critics of Islam, just as there people who defend Islam from all criticism. Political correctness is not "leftist". Plenty of morons who get outraged whenever anyone criticizes Christianity. Also apparently Fascism is Leftist too, and apparently Hollywood is liberal propaganda that should be illegal.

    BTW if you feel offended by these Posts, sue the offenders. For this you do have a state of law.
    I don't get it. What's wrong with calling it out and pointing out the stupidity of the views you typed out? I either have to stay silent or "sue the offenders"? I can't simply be outraged and tweet out how stupid such thinking is?

  15. #35
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post

    And Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

    Sam Harris nails it.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-aslan/381411/
    Pss....the intellectual father of Islamophobia is Bernard Lewis, the author of Assassins. (1). Sam Harris is a disciple.
    -------
    Tell me Aexodus, do you believe in globalism, in a global world? off course not. Globalism is an anathema, right?
    Sam Harris, islamophobe,writes,
    While the other major world religions have been fertile sources of intolerance, it is clear that the doctrine of Islam poses unique problems for the emergence of a global civilization.”
    A global white Christian civilization, I presume.

    Harris is not a real antisemite but.....hmm. He says, quoting:"I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible"

    ----
    (1) Edward Said- prof. at Columbia University, the author of Orientalism - and many other books Selected Bibliography of Work about and of Edward Said's Texts,
    once argued that there is a connection among the academy (ie. Lewis, for example- and others.) government and media to craft narratives about Muslims to exert some sort of control over them.Let's keep in mind that Lewis was talking about that the "evil muslim east"-but in fact he is talking about the former Ottoman empire, which had indeed been invaded and ruled by European imperial powers for a century and more. For that reason, the colonial mind of Lewis understood Muslims as violent by nature, irrational, lacking in culture.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 10, 2018 at 08:39 PM.
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  16. #36
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Pss....the intellectual father of Islamophobia is Bernard Lewis, the author of Assassins. (1). Sam Harris is a disciple. ..
    Pss .. the intellectual father of Islamophobia was a guy named Odo of Châtillon, great man! Actually a political genius!

  17. #37

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    A global white Christian civilization, I presume.

    Harris is not a real antisemite but.....hmm. He says, quoting:"I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So I don’t celebrate the idea that there’s a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. I certainly don’t support any Jewish claims to real estate based on the Bible"
    I don't know if I follow the point you're making about Harris, but that quote about Israel is somewhat misrepresentative of his view when taken out of context. He immediately follows with:

    Though I just said that I don’t think Israel should exist as a Jewish state, the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So, if there were going to be a state organized around protecting members of a single religion, it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather tepid defense, but it’s the strongest one I’ve got. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable.
    Adding the following note to his published transcript:

    Note: It is worth observing, however, that Israel isn’t “Jewish” in the sense that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are “Muslim.” As my friend Jerry Coyne points out, Israel is actually less religious than the U.S., and it guarantees freedom of religion to its citizens. Israel is not a theocracy, and one could easily argue that its Jewish identity is more cultural than religious. However, if we ask why the Jews wouldn’t move to British Columbia if offered a home there, we can see the role that religion still plays in their thinking.
    Likewise, calling Bernard Lewis "the intellectual father of Islamophobia" is a bit much.

    For the sake of expediency, taken from his Wikipedia page:

    Lewis presented some of his conclusions about Islamic culture, Shari'a law, jihad, and the modern day phenomenon of terrorism in his text Islam: The Religion and the People.[62] He writes of jihad as a distinct "religious obligation", but suggests that "it is a pity" that people engaging in terrorist activities are not more aware of their own religion:

    "Muslim fighters are commanded not to kill women, children, or the aged unless they attack first; not to torture or otherwise ill-treat prisoners; to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities or their resumption after a truce; and to honor agreements. ... At no time did the classical jurists offer any approval or legitimacy to what we nowadays call terrorism. Nor indeed is there any evidence of the use of terrorism as it is practiced nowadays."[63]

    In Lewis' view, the "by now widespread terrorism practice of suicide bombing is a development of the 20th century" with "no antecedents in Islamic history, and no justification in terms of Islamic theology, law, or tradition".[64] He further comments that "the fanatical warrior offering his victims the choice of the Koran or the sword is not only untrue, it is impossible" and that "generally speaking, Muslim tolerance of unbelievers was far better than anything available in Christendom, until the rise of secularism in the 17th century".[65]
    If one took those quotes in isolation, he might come across as Islamophilic. His attempts at academic balance, whether successful or not, obviously left him susceptible to disingenuous quote mining from whatever angle one would like to take.

    I have no issue with honest criticism of Harris or Lewis from any angle, but I think painting moderates as far-right extremists, is one of the reasons conversations on these types of topics devolve into nonsense. It seems especially odd to associate a former Marxist of Jewish ancestry and an anti-theist of partial Jewish ancestry with a desire to institute a "global white Christian civilization", but then I may have misunderstood the point being made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #38

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    A global white Christian civilization, I presume.
    There was a regime that believed in a Pluri-Ethnic and Pluri-Continental country and fought to the end for it.

    It was the Estado Novo regime, literally. Are you turning over to a new leaf? Seeing how much you dislike regional ethno states.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  19. #39
    Gäiten's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    What?
    You have understood me correctly.
    In Islam it is forbidden to either criticize or question Islam. Sharia laws deal brutally with such offenses and offenders. It is a sacrilege.
    In Western world with our supposed idea of free speech, how could they enforce their will?
    Some clever people had then the idea to declare critique of Islam as discrimination and racism towards the Muslim people. Discrimination and racism are the most horrible in Western world. If such an accusation is done, reasonable thinking is stopped and almost anything will be done to clear away the accusation of *discrimination*.
    So the idea of Islamophobia was invented to have the offenses and offenders punished and any critique of Islam is offense, taking a hint of Sharia, because what has been simply free speech does follow now the basic of Sharia law. Keep them quiet, accept only the idea of Islam these people preach, because they are the most organized and aggressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I don't get it. What's wrong with calling it out and pointing out the stupidity of the views you typed out? I either have to stay silent or "sue the offenders"? I can't simply be outraged and tweet out how stupid such thinking is?
    You are mistaken this comment to the comments I did write above. These are intended for the lament of Papay at the beginning of this thread. If he feels offended by certain FB or Twitter comments he does have the right to sue these people. Then it will be decided if it is criminal offenses or not. By professional members of the judiciary, not emotional amateurs.

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  20. #40

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gäiten View Post
    You have understood me correctly.
    In Islam it is forbidden to either criticize or question Islam. Sharia laws deal brutally with such offenses and offenders. It is a sacrilege.
    Sure, but why are we talking about backwards religious states? That's whataboutism.

    In Western world with our supposed idea of free speech, how could they enforce their will?
    They can't. That's the whole point. Even the most extremist Muslims cannot turn Europe into Sharia-states.

    Some clever people had then the idea to declare critique of Islam as discrimination and racism towards the Muslim people. Discrimination and racism are the most horrible in Western world. If such an accusation is done, reasonable thinking is stopped and almost anything will be done to clear away the accusation of *discrimination*.
    So the idea of Islamophobia was invented to have the offenses and offenders punished and any critique of Islam is offense, taking a hint of Sharia, because what has been simply free speech does follow now the basic of Sharia law. Keep them quiet, accept only the idea of Islam these people preach, because they are the most organized and aggressive.
    Because it is racism. What's the point of criticizing Islam? It makes no sense. All religions are ridiculous. Moreover, much of the criticism against Islam can be attributed to the authoritarian nature of the regimes that are Islamic. In addition to that, criticism against Islam is constantly being used to attack accepting refugees. If that's not a form of bigotry, then I don't know what is.

    You are mistaken this comment to the comments I did write above. These are intended for the lament of Papay at the beginning of this thread. If he feels offended by certain FB or Twitter comments he does have the right to sue these people. Then it will be decided if it is criminal offenses or not. By professional members of the judiciary, not emotional amateurs
    Except far right hate-speech isn't sued these days. They are simply denied service and a platform to spread their hateful views. There's no need to sue them.

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