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Thread: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

  1. #61
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Accusing someone of a fallacy is itself a fallacy which shows the instigator was never really serious about engaging in an honest debate from the beginning.
    not really it’s a criticism of their discourse.
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  2. #62

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Accusing someone of a fallacy is itself a fallacy which shows the instigator was never really serious about engaging in an honest debate from the beginning. Let me know when you're interested in exchanging facts and ideas on an even plane instead of trying to claim the moral high ground by showing how fallacious your opponent is.
    You routinely refuse to engage in honest debate and dismiss arguments because you don't "like" them. Routinely. Your double standards for your own argumentation on the D&D irks me as much as it amuses me. Now then, do tell us more about that left-wing creation of "whataboutism" again?

  3. #63

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    You routinely refuse to engage in honest debate and dismiss arguments because you don't "like" them. Routinely. Your double standards for your own argumentation on the D&D irks me as much as it amuses me. Now then, do tell us more about that left-wing creation of "whataboutism" again?

    Ok so expose my dishonestly. Your pseudo/pseudo engagements are as effective as my fortune cookie fortunes from last month, thick actually predict I might meet my soul mate. So yeah, be warned.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; January 11, 2019 at 09:51 PM.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    I expect better from the Academy, looks like Papay 's OP has been sold short. Some of this stuff could easily be lifted from the 'Pit. It's therefore Mongrel time.

    In my view it is down to all of us to challenge racism, extremism etc. On the bus, on the train, in the bar, wherever. And online, including here of course. One can't rely on governments, it's not a priority for them. Politicians throughout the free world have essentially sat on their hands on the issue of far-right violence although the UK has woken up to it following the murder of Jo Cox. National Action and similar groups openly advocating violence are banned. Britain First is essentially defunct, it's leaders jailed for harassment.An we all know that serial criminal Tommy Robinson is periodically reminded he is not above the law.

    I note someone recognises the UK's stand against far-right terrorism and extremism in his own peculiar way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post

    England being foremost among the thought police.
    That said, Parliament is still dithering about the fascist gilets jeunes (no relation to the French protests) harrassing female politicians and journalists (where were they when Poles and female Muslims were getting the same treatment?) edit- The Met have taken action now, so that's sorted.

    Activism has got around this inaction and has found ways of dealing with this anti-social behaviour. Counter protests aren't too productive, as we found with Charlottesville, it just gave Trump the space to excuse literal fascists and Nazis.


    Counter surveillance is the way forward using digital tools and online networks to publicize the activities of the far right, and to hold to account those authorities whose response has ranged between inadequate to outright collusion.

    Doxxing people who participate in online organizing or offline street action, grooming as I would call it, reduces the risk of radicalisation these nutjobs present, and exacts a cost for participation in far right movements.

    The use of photographs of street events like Unite the Right in Charlottesville, revelations from compromised chat servers which mentioned using vehicles to kill liberals and admiration for Hitler etc, and the kinds of extensive trails connecting far right violence with the real names of the people who perpetrate it.It helped give Heather Heyer (deceased) justice and deterred a repeat of such antics the following year. Where are the Proud Boys now?

    The Rise Agaist Movement was effectively untouchable until it was the subject of reporting by ProPublica and PBS. After Charlottesville,8, U.S. Attorney Thomas Cullen announced charges against RAM members deeming them 'antisemitic' and 'serial rioters'..


    No -platforming does more than inconvenience a few Islamophobe or racist cultists. The publicity sheds light on the kind of people sponsoring far-right crap. For example The author, blogger and free schools botherer Toby Young *was just about to be landed a plum job on the board of the Universities regulator when the Department of Education was reminded of his comments on gay people , working class students and women in various publications, forcing him to resign. He also attended a racist conference. The Jewish Board of Deputies gently reminded Richard Desmond of his heritage when the editor of one of his newspapers the Daily Star decided to court the EDL .

    Major platforms have acted to limit the reach of conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. McInnes and the Proud Boys were also banned from almost every major social media platform following their involvement in several violent incidents in American cities.After Milo Yiannopoulos was defenestrated from Twitter and is persona non grata , and broke. But in all of these cases, social media companies responded only after sustained pressure from users.

    *I must add Toby Young is not a Nazi, just a bigoted professional dick.

    What is necessary is pressure on platforms to do more to counter the more extreme elements of far-right indoctrination. ( Can I suggest this also applies to TWC?) If one can't show tits on facebook , one shouldn't be allowed to call for the burning of places of worship, or call for some race war.


    On a lighter note, I am encouraged by the recent American trend of ridiculing the actions of everyday racists who call the police on black people for no apparent or rational reason. Parody, I think, is the greatest weapon there is against such scum.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9slqJERNGw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyATgNSAkj8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eWGBxl6AbA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqARrnQdcQM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpHPWAKvANU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvD-HBkxluo
    Last edited by mongrel; January 12, 2019 at 05:37 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  5. #65

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    I really don't think we have anything to worry about from the British Yellow Vests...

    https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084118308696268801

    I really would be wondering if English is their first language, or at the very least they should be standing for a better education system because they wrote this on a computer and didn't have the intellectual capacity to even bother spell checking it...

  6. #66

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    I really don't think we have anything to worry about from the British Yellow Vests...

    https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1084118308696268801

    I really would be wondering if English is their first language, or at the very least they should be standing for a better education system because they wrote this on a computer and didn't have the intellectual capacity to even bother spell checking it...
    Indeed, a powerful demonstration perhaps that shedding light on these imbeciles is a good way of challenging them in the face of official indifference.

    Edit: I see that the ringleader of these fake yellow vest yobs has had his collar felt.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...order-offences
    Last edited by mongrel; January 12, 2019 at 03:43 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  7. #67

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    They get a different treatment because Christianity isn’t seen as a minority ethnic religion. This political correctness is why christian persecution in the middle east is largely ignored
    The left does not care much about religious differences. It all goes into "Opium of the people" bag, plus they are into exclusively rational materialistic worldview.

    The only different from a left PoV is Oil money and totally non-cartel orgs like OPEC.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  8. #68
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    But the left really does treat it differently. See the Swedish Green Party
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  9. #69

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    But the left really does treat it differently. See the Swedish Green Party
    Wasn't aware all people of a left of centre persuasion in the world had to have membership of a foreign environmentalist party. This really is a non-answer.

    The original question was also pointless as it does not relate in any way to the issue of dealing with bothersome far-right behaviour.
    Last edited by mongrel; January 12, 2019 at 05:35 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
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  10. #70
    Papay's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I dont know. Im assuming the tweets Papay posted.
    I didnt posted a single twitt. I poster some twitter accounts that have the purpose of attacking muslims. Take for example Pamela gellers account

    https://twitter.com/PamelaGeller

    There is not a single twitt that isnt associated with attacking muslims. Naturally i am not bothered with bigots but it seems that these accounts manage to brainwash some kids and have helped stirring up far right

  11. #71
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    @mongrel another example is the Labour party’s approach to attracting the Muslim vote and Corbyn’s public support of Hamas and Hezbollah.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    "We will never sell the holy land of Paeonia to the nefarious cabal of the European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics!”

  12. #72

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    @mongrel another example is the Labour party’s approach to attracting the Muslim vote and Corbyn’s public support of Hamas and Hezbollah.
    Another non-answer. Muslims are not obliged to join the Labour Party nor vote for them as evidenced by a number of councillors, MPs and peers representing other parties.

    Again absoloutely nothing to do with either hate -speech in general or the antics of the far-right in particular and 'what should be done'. Utterly off-topic, another wheeze no doubt to get cultists to bang on about Islam and or socialism. It is not that difficult for anyone to understand the OP surely? I can't believe I have to say this outside of the Mudpit.

    Enough off-topic nonsense. If you are not able to discuss possible solutions to troubling far-right behaviour for doctrinal reasons, just say so .

    Quote Originally Posted by Papay View Post
    I didnt posted a single twitt. I poster some twitter accounts that have the purpose of attacking muslims. Take for example Pamela gellers account

    https://twitter.com/PamelaGeller

    There is not a single twitt that isnt associated with attacking muslims. Naturally i am not bothered with bigots but it seems that these accounts manage to brainwash some kids and have helped stirring up far right
    Good point. There will always be bigots who exploit others for fame or money. But yes, new media is a powerful tool for indoctrinating people who are not that sophisticated, or have no great knowledge of how society works.

    We have an example amongst us, a once harmless poster on the MTW forums, who having told us about his exposure to Tommy Robinson's works, has posted, almost spammed at times, some quite extreme posts even by Mudpit standards. The same kind of exposure led to Darren Osborne murdering a Muslim pensioner who lived 153 miles away. Indoctrination, for that is what this material intends, seems to bring out the basest instincts in people, but it is difficult to predict it's effect, it might turn one person to vote a particular way, or advocate racial/religious discrimination, another to bore others to death online with incoherent gibberish. Others will graduate to harassment and assault (usually women) and the unsalvagible are known to have commited arson or murder.

    So what's to be done?
    Last edited by mongrel; January 14, 2019 at 08:23 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    I expect better from the Academy, looks like Papay 's OP has been sold short. Some of this stuff could easily be lifted from the 'Pit. It's therefore Mongrel time.

    In my view it is down to all of us to challenge racism, extremism etc. On the bus, on the train, in the bar, wherever. And online, including here of course. One can't rely on governments, it's not a priority for them. Politicians throughout the free world have essentially sat on their hands on the issue of far-right violence although the UK has woken up to it following the murder of Jo Cox. National Action and similar groups openly advocating violence are banned. Britain First is essentially defunct, it's leaders jailed for harassment.An we all know that serial criminal Tommy Robinson is periodically reminded he is not above the law.

    I note someone recognises the UK's stand against far-right terrorism and extremism in his own peculiar way.


    That said, Parliament is still dithering about the fascist gilets jeunes (no relation to the French protests) harrassing female politicians and journalists (where were they when Poles and female Muslims were getting the same treatment?) edit- The Met have taken action now, so that's sorted.

    Activism has got around this inaction and has found ways of dealing with this anti-social behaviour. Counter protests aren't too productive, as we found with Charlottesville, it just gave Trump the space to excuse literal fascists and Nazis.


    Counter surveillance is the way forward using digital tools and online networks to publicize the activities of the far right, and to hold to account those authorities whose response has ranged between inadequate to outright collusion.

    Doxxing people who participate in online organizing or offline street action, grooming as I would call it, reduces the risk of radicalisation these nutjobs present, and exacts a cost for participation in far right movements.

    The use of photographs of street events like Unite the Right in Charlottesville, revelations from compromised chat servers which mentioned using vehicles to kill liberals and admiration for Hitler etc, and the kinds of extensive trails connecting far right violence with the real names of the people who perpetrate it.It helped give Heather Heyer (deceased) justice and deterred a repeat of such antics the following year. Where are the Proud Boys now?

    The Rise Agaist Movement was effectively untouchable until it was the subject of reporting by ProPublica and PBS. After Charlottesville,8, U.S. Attorney Thomas Cullen announced charges against RAM members deeming them 'antisemitic' and 'serial rioters'..


    No -platforming does more than inconvenience a few Islamophobe or racist cultists. The publicity sheds light on the kind of people sponsoring far-right crap. For example The author, blogger and free schools botherer Toby Young *was just about to be landed a plum job on the board of the Universities regulator when the Department of Education was reminded of his comments on gay people , working class students and women in various publications, forcing him to resign. He also attended a racist conference. The Jewish Board of Deputies gently reminded Richard Desmond of his heritage when the editor of one of his newspapers the Daily Star decided to court the EDL .

    Major platforms have acted to limit the reach of conspiracy theorist Alex Jones. McInnes and the Proud Boys were also banned from almost every major social media platform following their involvement in several violent incidents in American cities.After Milo Yiannopoulos was defenestrated from Twitter and is persona non grata , and broke. But in all of these cases, social media companies responded only after sustained pressure from users.

    *I must add Toby Young is not a Nazi, just a bigoted professional dick.

    What is necessary is pressure on platforms to do more to counter the more extreme elements of far-right indoctrination. ( Can I suggest this also applies to TWC?) If one can't show tits on facebook , one shouldn't be allowed to call for the burning of places of worship, or call for some race war.


    On a lighter note, I am encouraged by the recent American trend of ridiculing the actions of everyday racists who call the police on black people for no apparent or rational reason. Parody, I think, is the greatest weapon there is against such scum.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9slqJERNGw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyATgNSAkj8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eWGBxl6AbA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqARrnQdcQM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpHPWAKvANU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvD-HBkxluo
    So the major failure here is the inability to draw distinctions between private and public action in order to achieve some sort of result which, ultimately, justifies the colonial delegates of 1776.
    Roads go ever ever on,
    Over rock and under tree,
    By caves where never sun has shone,
    By streams that never find the sea

  14. #74

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    A bit of a non-answer. As the US constitution condoned slavery, those ancient Americans were hardly going to embrace rights for all men.

    I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but for the benefit of those truly ignorant of the relevant law, we are talking about people who use threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening and the intent is to promote hatred against a particular group covered by law.

    I would argue that it is difficult to incite people if one keeps one's bigoted views to oneself. Quite elementary, is it not?
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Objectively speaking "hate speech" is a subjective non-entity, as anything can be defined as "hateful" depending on the perspective. For example, a simple documentary on nature would give a meltdown to groups that tend to deny science, like liberal left in the West (which tends to claim that most of scientific concepts are "social constructs" to justify their outdated egalitarian ideologies) or Islamist groups in the Gulf (who think the abrahamic nonsense is real). That's why "hate speech" laws are just a tool used by state to punish dissent, Russia and UK would be great example of state abusing such laws. Then we have example of US, which doesn't really have such laws and its lack of "hate crime epidemic" is a great indicator that "hate speech" laws belong in the legislative garbage bin together with "blasphemy laws' or any other laws that prevent free market of opinions to flourish.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Objectively speaking "hate speech" is a subjective non-entity, as anything can be defined as "hateful" depending on the perspective. For example, a simple documentary on nature would give a meltdown to groups that tend to deny science, like liberal left in the West (which tends to claim that most of scientific concepts are "social constructs" to justify their outdated egalitarian ideologies) or Islamist groups in the Gulf (who think the abrahamic nonsense is real). That's why "hate speech" laws are just a tool used by state to punish dissent, Russia and UK would be great example of state abusing such laws. Then we have example of US, which doesn't really have such laws and its lack of "hate crime epidemic" is a great indicator that "hate speech" laws belong in the legislative garbage bin together with "blasphemy laws' or any other laws that prevent free market of opinions to flourish.
    'People who use threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening and the intent is to promote hatred against a particular group.'

    Looks fairly objective to me . Lets look at a real case, the events leading to the conviction of Paul Golding and Jayda Fransen ( nice British name?)former leaders of the now defunct Britain First

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...im-hate-crimes

    'Both were convicted over an incident at a takeaway in Ramsgate, in Kent, during which Fransen banged on the windows and doors and screamed “paedophile” and “foreigner”. Two children were playing in the middle of the shop and Jamshed Khesrow, a friend of the owners, was inside.

    The judge dismissed a second charge against the pair over an incident alleged to have taken place outside Canterbury crown court later that day.

    Fransen was convicted on another count related to a visit to a house she wrongly believed to be the address of a defendant in the Canterbury trial, Sershah Muslimyar. Golding was cleared of uploading a video of that incident.

    Fransen was convicted on a third count over an incident at the home of Tamin Rahmani, during which she shouted racist abuse through the front door while his pregnant partner was inside.'

    As the judge said,"These defendants were not merely exercising their right to free speech but were instead aiming religiously aggravated abuse at innocent members of the public.”


    This kind of harrassment requires punishment. Mind you given your views on the Charlottesville murder, this might have passed to by.


    Off topic, but lets take another one, the conviction of Anjem Choudhary's Sharia patrol.

    They weren't excercising free speech either, they were s and were rightly jailed for their actions. The Judge felt the prosecution could have added more charges.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...attacks-london


    Now give us a truthful reason why such scum should not be jailed, instead of offering the forum fact-free waffle.
    Last edited by mongrel; January 14, 2019 at 03:59 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  17. #77
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Anjem Choudary’s conviction had nothing to do with hate speech. It was glorification of terrorism
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
    Check out the Post of the Fortnight Competition!
    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    "We will never sell the holy land of Paeonia to the nefarious cabal of the European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics!”

  18. #78

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    It's not a fallacy to note that two Abrahamic religions get a totally different treatment from the Left Wing. Which really raises the question, if Equality is the Point, why such non-equal treatment? Why such sudden animosity towards equality in this case?
    Plus no offense but this is a political faction that prides itself on atheism and links such stance with rationality, so I'm guessing "religious studies" assuming they even exist, will never go beyond the purely historical materialistic dialect basis, and proudly so, in a sort of cropped Hegel. (Hegel wasn't a materialist)

    Add in that one of the host countries of one of the Abrahamic factions has more Oil money for support, and there's even an Economical basis for suspecting the reason for non-equal treatment.

    So it's not really a Fallacy, but an important observation.
    Let me stop you right here. The question is regarding far-right hate speech, not double standards. While your statement is certainly a valid question/observation, it does not address the argument. The argument here being, Is it acceptable to allow hate-speech on social media? Tu Quoque arguments aren't fallacious because they are illogical or aren't good arguments in and of themselves, but because they avoid answering the original question/addressing the original argument.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Anjem Choudary’s conviction had nothing to do with hate speech. It was glorification of terrorism
    I didn't mention his arrest, I specifically mentioned the so-called sharia patrols.I know you have heard of them so don't pretend you have not. 'Phobes talk about them all the time whilst pretending that the authorities never jailed their backsides. Why did you bring it up and do you have a problem with those 'sharia patrol' convictions? If the answer to the last question is no, then you can't be critical, if any other group behaves likewise , for example those National Action chaps in Birmingham..
    Last edited by mongrel; January 14, 2019 at 08:22 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

    "Out of the crooked tree of humanity,no straight thing can be made." Immanuel Kant
    "Oh Yeah? What about a cricket bat? That's pretty straight. Just off the top of my head..." Al Murray, Pub Landlord.

  20. #80
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Far right hate speech. What should be done?

    Is it acceptable to allow hate-speech on social media?
    I say yes, because not all hate speech is damaging (such as jokes), and there’s alternative and better ways to directly prohibit incitement and harassment etc
    Under the patronage of Pontifex Maximus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    "We will never sell the holy land of Paeonia to the nefarious cabal of the European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics!”

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