DaC - Official Dol Guldur Discussion

[Arachir Galudirithon]

Mae Govannen.

As discussed in this thread: DaC - Official Angmar Discussion

We are looking to make Dol Guldur and Angmar more unique in terms of their overall faction identity. The other thread is for Angmar and this one is for Dol Guldur.

Unlike the Angmar thread, the only lead we really have on Dol Guldur is to possibly make them the 'sneaky' orcs. Similarly to how Enedwaith are the sneaky ambushing wildmen.

Your thoughts are very much welcome as to what you would do to jazz up Dol Guldur! Please bare in mind that large scripts are not really an option at this point, keep it simple and keep it grounded.


Cair a Alph!

Galu

[jedi7000nathan]

Honestly the focus on Dol Guldur should be on the faction leader Khamul the Black Easterling, the right hand of the Witch-King, the Easterling units should be buffed considerably and act Dol Guldur's elites, there should be a focus on fell creatures, perhaps adding in Werewolves; it is mentioned by Gandalf in the Fellowship that Werewolves were still in Sauron's service in the Third Age when explaining the forces of Sauron to Frodo in a Shadow of the Past, the real thing that would make Dol Guldur unique would be making them a hard counter to Elf factions, Dol Guldur borders half of the Elf factions in the game, notably in the lore Dol Guldur was not attacked by the Elves until near the end of the War of the Ring, also Dol Guldur managed to stalemate both the Woodland Realm of Thranduil and the Realm of the Galadhrim under Galadriel for centuries constantly raiding both, this sheer threat for thousands of years plus Sauron's direct influence would mean that over the centuries they have grown rather adept at killing elves and countering them.

[Kjertesvein]

I prefer pure and simple themes, not saturated or chaotic. This suggestion is two-fold.

Sneaky orcs is a cool theme. The silver easterlings are cool too, but combined they oversaturate the roster theme. Just like the white hand trolls, they dont fit. I think you should get rid of regular easterlings, specially the silver stuff, and instead make them more pure stealth faction.

Sneaky orcs is good and unqiue. Stealth is often synonymas with the rouge theme (e.g. elder scrolls). Another theme that goes well with the classic rouge theme of stealth is speed, bows, small crossbows, black cloaks, thievery, bucklers, and daggers.

Alternatively, a choice can be made between «silver» easterlings or stealth orcs. Most choices in the game are fairly lenient, without major consequences. This choice should be a hard choice, removing your ability to recruit either race. The dol gondor choice could represent a «coup», in which the player will have to choose between easterlings or stealth orcs. The result of such coice is the removal or ethnic cleansing of either race. Stand by the mutiny or with your human brothers. Evil fight among each other.

Stick to a clean theme. Being a sneaky black orc and having flashing silver easterlings doesnt mesh well together.

~Wille

[Sentient Tree]

Isn't 'Orc Stealth' an oxymoron akin to 'Military intelligence' or 'bureaucratic efficiency'.

I've played a 2.2 DG campaign and generally found it enjoyable early game, but boring later on.

Some thoughts:
-Love the poison arrows, they look great and should be expanded across the roster.
-Being completely surrounded by enemies, you need a lot of trash to hold your borders.
-I found myself playing DG like an elf faction focused on archer superiority. Instead of countering elves, I mirrored them to succeed.

Suggestion:
Play on their hatred of elves and their destruction of the forest more. Their main goal is to corrupt and destroy the Greenwood. Key aspects of this would be poison and spiders followed by fire and axes.

Poison and Spiders: (Orcs)
-Poison arrows and weapons where possible.
-Catapults that shoot corpses / poisons.
-Cult of Shelob units (Spears and Javelins).
-These units fight better in forests.

Fire and Axes (Easterlings or Rhovanion / Balcoth)
-Fire arrows and scorched earth focused units (archers, catapults, bomb-throwers)
-Men wielding AP axes on horse and foot. Focused on clearing the eastern reaches of the forest for more pastures.
-Add a separate building for the recruitment of men (Logging Camp / Stables?). Men from Rhovanion / Rhun, Orcs from the forests and mountains.
-These units fight better in Grasslands.

[Drevlianin]

As I understand orcs of MM and DG prefer war by the moonlight.

I would like if all orcish generals of these factions can and prefer to fight at night.

[Hummingbird]

My personal opinion is Dul Guldur should be the orcish faction that most emphasizes stealth and ambush tactics. Almost an orcish answer to Enedwaith perhaps. Poisoned arrows should be the order of the day plus perhaps more sneaky units like the existing Goblin Headhunters.

The 'Khamul's' units would make for nice rare late game elites, but they should not be the core of the faction's identity and battle tactics.

[Sir Matthias]

Honestly, without overhauling the entire roster it's easiest just to make a script for dol guldur. Personally, it wouldn't be hard to make scripts for both these factions if you have the right ideas. Then again, would be a lot easier to test the roster overhaul .

[Hummingbird]

The entire point is to make the rosters more distinct. Whether a script would be "easier" or not is irrelevant.

[Sir Matthias]

Dol guldur seems to me to be a pretty specialized javelin faction with good range and then spikes of great infantry, what they lack really is a spice to their gameplay for the lategame. So yes, that seems like their lacking imo.

[ivam50]

I would really like to see Dol Goldur become an archer or ranged focused nations, with a lot of sneaky bois.

So like the mainline infantry would be jav, it would have spammy archers that aren't terrible in melee, and its cav would also be archer or jav cav

[LuckyPistol]

I think a Hungary style approach to Dol Guldur could spice things up a bit. Swift light armored units that pack a punch, with a high tier elite assassin/elf killer unit.

[Dsonsion]

Yeah, I think the Easterling make up a too large part of the military potential in the late game, but I'm not sure as to what to propose in their stead. DG is still the only orc faction with a decent orc javelin unit. Maybe capitalising on that would make them a bit more distinct.
It is a pity that spiders make the game unstable.

[Burlini]

Dol Guldur should focus on stealth with orcs that are excellent in ambushing.
Perhaps the Spiders should be reintroduced, I know they were removed due to them crashing a lot so I don't know if that can be improved.
I do really like the poison trait that Dol Guldur gets

[Vifarc]

To counter elves, you need bows, and number and good shields to deplete elven arrows.
I don't think the AI would well use assassins (stealthy infantry to reach archers).

[Skawer]

I am not sure that stealth (on the battlemap) really ever worked well in med II. The AI dose not really know how to use it against the player, and when the player uses it against the AI if often freaks out and stops fighting effectively. Therefore, rather then give the units the option to hide everywhere, I would suggest making the Dol Guldur lower tier units faster (but maybe getting tiered faster) so they can potentially engage enemy archers earlier in the battle giving there more elite units protection from arrow fire as they advance.

[Oneru]

Dol Guldur have a strong distinction from the other orcs in the fact that their 'homeland' is forest instead of mountains. I think this should be their discerning factor.

So how could that be done? Look at what defines mountain-orcs, compare that to forest-factions (mostly elves), then join those together to create an interesting mix. My tips would be:
- First of all, they should remain a numbers-faction. They shouldn't become a "few but strong"-faction, but should still rely on larger numbers of low quality troops combined with a few strong elites in late-game.
- As a forest-faction, give them forest units:

• troops with axes
• plenty of archers with perhaps an overall better accuracy/range than other orcs,
• swift and low armoured overall,
• very few high-armoured or armour piercing units
• plenty of 'adept at hiding in woods'

- Trolls are perhaps not the best match for a forest-faction, but I would still not include spiders, unless their model can be built in such a way that they don't break the game. Although they add flavour, the game doesn't need them.
- You might consider adding a 'Logging Camp' type of building
- Perhaps something more can be done with Elves vs Guldur: not necessarily scripts or so, but just a reoccuring 'Hates Elves' trait in the generals of Dol Guldur.

[Goat rider]

If they want to counter elven arrows they'll need shields, lots of shields.

[Atanvarno of Ithilien]

The Olog-hai first appeared on the southern borders of Mirkwood in the lore. Therefore I think it would fit to give Dol Guldur a better troll unit, if I am not mistaken the troll they have at the moment are similar to mountain trolls of other orc factions. Dol Guldur should have the strongest trolls, because it was in Dol Guldur they first appeared and then it makes sense that the strongest breeds were made here, as they got a long time to perfect the olog-hai. This could be an explanation for why they should get better trolls in my opinion. At least these trolls should be similar to the olog-hai of Mordor statwise in my opinion.

I also believe that Dol Guldur should have a really strong javelin unit: no other orc faction really has this at the moment, and it makes sense to give them javelins since they are fighting under the eaves of Mirkwood. It could either be uruks equipped with javelins or a unit like the castellans. These javelins could also have poison if it is possible to mod this, to reflect that they are influenced by the spawn of Ungoliant.

[AnAngryPacifist]

I love the idea of a stealthy, archer-jav orc nation in Mirkwood, but I'd like to suggest something extra.

Dol Guldor is steeped in magic, corruption and necromancy. Dol Guldor means Hill of Sorcery, Sauron's nom de guerre there is the Necromancer, the forest was corrupted from Greenwood to Mirkwood, and the forest is full of curses like the sleep-inducing river when the Dwarves cross through it. The spiders of Mirkwood grew fat and enormous on the toxic influences of Dol Goldur. Sauron also famously used undead with the Nazgul, Barrow-wights and his monsters of the First Age.

I say we play on that a little, and give Dol Guldor dead, cursed or ghostly versions of their neighbours - undead elves, Woodsmen and Northmen. Maybe woodsmen are the axe infantry, Northmen the archers, and then elves a bit of both. Orcs as the lowest tier, Woodsmen and Northmen in the middle, and elves and Easterlings/evil elites at the top. A typical army might be 50% ranged orc trash, 25% undead middle units, and then 25% elite sorcerer types.

Have some units look a little 'corrupted forest' too, with fungal or plant growths sprouting from their faces or something.

[Drevlianin]

undead elves