Russian-Ukrainian naval incident

[Papay]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-uk...103049363.html

There is an ongoing crisis in the Azov sea with Russian Ships blocking Ukrainian ships. There are rumors that fire has being exchanged, even for dead.

Moved from the Ukrainian conflict discussion. Abdülmecid

[JP226]

This would be a good time to remind the cowards in Europe that they owe us money for protecting them.

[Cyclops]

This would be a good time to remind the cowards in Europe that they owe us money for protecting them.

[US stages coup in Ukraine at the command of the Saudis and US Big Oil]

[Russia retaliates, annexes Crimea, ongoing violence in Ukraine]

"Gee whizz, Europe needs Uncle Sam again!"

[Elmetiacos]

[US stages coup in Ukraine at the command of the Saudis and US Big Oil]

You missed out George Soros, oh and the Freemasons too.

[Cyclops]

Look I strongly dislike Putin as a leader, I think he's a murderous scumbag. This situation doesn't call for a moral judgement of wrong and right, when you have nuclear-armed opponents realpolitick is called for.

If our end game here is nuclear war in Asia then by all means escalate. If we want to remove Putin politically then they better have a better candidate ready to roll, we've seen what imploding a dictator does in the Arab Spring, you want millions more refugees? On reflection it would be a massive kick in the guts for the EU, maybe this is the US endgame...

...the then Soviet Union attempted to establish a missile presence in Cuba.
If the Soviet Union was in the wrong back in 1962, then NATO and the USA are in the wrong now that they are trying to establish a military presence so close to the Russian heartland.

I have to agree. Ukraine is closer to the Russian heartland strategically and emotionally than even Cuba, our side setting up leaders in Kiev is equivalent to the Russians staging a coup in Mexico.

As an aside I'd note the Russians tried to put nukes in Cuba as a response to the unhinged warmongering of the idiot Kennedy who put nukes in Turkey. It was an escalation by Khrushchev but quite an understandable given Kennedy's inflammatory rhetoric during and after his shonky election.

The US threatening to go nuclear over Cuba was not a sensible response, but they were never going to respond sensibly. Likewise Russia's aggressive destabilisation in Ukraine may be against International Law and our bruised sense of right and wrong but its entirely predictable and understandable that they would react violently to a clear violation of their sphere of influence.

You missed out George Soros, oh and the Freemasons too.

I think Soros' influence is highly over-rated, I think he gets grief because he's Jewish and the antisemites hate seeing a Jew doing well, or breathing. As a billionaire he's small fry, well below the long established influence of the Kochs, Waltons etc. I mean he's not pleb tier like Trump, but he's not top tier either.

Not sure what you mean by the Freemasons. There's a long history of freemason movements in many countries, but currently in Great Britain they're a status club rather than a political nexus, somewhere you can meet in private with British judges, politicians and police chiefs and have a paedophile investigation quashed.

[95thrifleman]

This would be a good time to remind the cowards in Europe that they owe us money for protecting them.

Cowards?

[Pavlik the Rus]

Hi guys.

3 military ships entered territorial waters of RF without permission.
They was ramned, encircled and took abord.
One ukrainean sailor was injured.

This is not a news at all.
The real news here - Poroshenko declared that he will bring military regime inside country... 4 month before elections... where he has 4-5th place and zero chances to win
Now go ahead, taunt your mantras about ze evil Russia.

[PointOfViewGun]

Hi guys.

3 military ships entered territorial waters of RF without permission.
They was ramned, encircled and took abord.
One ukrainean sailor was injured.

This is not a news at all.
The real news here - Poroshenko declared that he will bring military regime inside country... 4 month before elections... where he has 4-5th place and zero chances to win
Now go ahead, taunt your mantras about ze evil Russia.

Russian waters? Or Crimean waters?

[95thrifleman]

Russian waters? Or Crimean waters?

Crimean waters ARE Russian waters now. People may not like it but Crimea is Russia now.

[Adar]

Hi guys.

3 military ships entered territorial waters of RF without permission.
They was ramned, encircled and took abord.
One ukrainean sailor was injured.

This is not a news at all.
The real news here - Poroshenko declared that he will bring military regime inside country... 4 month before elections... where he has 4-5th place and zero chances to win
Now go ahead, taunt your mantras about ze evil Russia.

Actually the Sea of Azov is according to Russia an inland water without a clear line of demarkation between Ukraine and Russia and both the Sea of Azov and Kerch Straight are according to that agreement shared territorial waters. The reason for this is that without such status you would have an Exclusive Economic Zone in the middle of the Sea of Azov which gives a lot of rights for international shipping.

So what you have is a third of the current operational Ukrainian navy peacefully exercising their right of passage from Odessa to Mariupol through the Kerch Straight. Russia broke either the 2003 agreement or the UNCLOS convention by seizing the ships and in both cases its an act of aggression initiated and carried out by Russia.

[paleologos]

...
So what you have is a third of the current operational Ukrainian navy peacefully...

"Peacefully" is according to the anti-Russia side, let's not be naive about it.
And there is no pro-Ukraine side to begin with, let's not be naive about that either.

...exercising their right of passage from Odessa to Mariupol through the Kerch Straight.

Is that what they were doing?
Really?
Were you there?

Russia broke either the 2003 agreement or the UNCLOS convention by seizing the ships and in both cases its an act of aggression initiated and carried out by Russia.

This in not an account of events, it is a conclusion, the correctness of which rests on the correctness of your description and interpretation of the events.

[Adar]

"Peacefully" is according to the anti-Russia side, let's not be naive about it.
And there is no pro-Ukraine side to begin with, let's not be naive about that either.




Is that what they were doing?
Really?
Were you there?




This in not an account of events, it is a conclusion, the correctness of which rests on the correctness of your description and interpretation of the events.

Instead of posting some vague accusations about "anti Russian" it would be nice if you could provide some insight into how you suggest the severely depleted Ukrainian navy would have come up with a sensible plan to attack Russia vessels in the Straits of Kerch.

Given that the Straits are the only connection between one of the most important harbours in Ukraine and the outside world it should not be very hard to understand that with less than a handful of operative warships it is a very bad idea for Ukraine to start a fight in the strait.

[paleologos]

Instead of posting some vague accusations about "anti Russian"...

Alright, let's disambiguate this for the benefit of the naive and the quasi-professionally obtuse alike:

There is this thing in the USA and some other NATO members (but local iterations of it exist in every country that has a domestic military industry), which is called the military-industrial complex.
After the Vietnam war it became more sophisticated as to warrant the name military-industrial-congressional-media complex.

In a nutshell, they want the voter/tax payers to believe that there is an "enemy-out-to-get-us", so that they vote into office "strong-on-defense" politicians who will be hawkish in the policies they advocate, will appoint hawkish diplomats and intelligence officers and promote hawkish generals to the highest offices of the defense establishment.

The policies such politicians implement are designed to provoke such a reaction on the part of the target nation that justifies an increase in defense expenditures, which was the desired effect to begin with.
In the case of NATO, the target nation is Russia.
There is no particular hatred toward Russia, it's just a convenient target of hawkish attitudes because it is powerful enough to be seen as a plausible threat to the naive and because there is an established propaganda investment on it that goes back to the mid/late forties.

...it would be nice if you could provide some insight into how you suggest the severely depleted Ukrainian navy would have come up with a sensible plan to attack Russia vessels in the Straits of Kerch.

There is a rule of thumb that is applicable in situations where the method of action a side has selected seems to be achieving results that are incongruent with the proclaimed -or likely- intentions.
And the rule is to assume that the actors under scrutiny are not crazy, or stupid but simply insincere regarding their proclaimed intentions.
In other words, look at the results and presume that these were the intended results.

In this case the result is that Russia looks aggressive to western observers that, like you, are not capable or willing to examine the incident in, let's say, "high resolution".
You simply cannot claim that the resulted loss of naval assets on the part of the Ukraine was such that the strategic situation has changed significantly.
But the incident can be used as a justification for the US government to donate certain naval assets to the Ukrainian Navy to "remedy" the situation.
Such assets will be bought by American tax payer money.
I expect that some Ukrainian admiral will receive some sort of commission for his role in expediating the sale.

Things like that have happened before.

Given that the Straits are the only connection between one of the most important harbours in Ukraine and the outside world it should not be very hard to understand that with less than a handful of operative warships it is a very bad idea for Ukraine to start a fight in the strait.

And if you were an ant crawling on top of the most beautiful Persian carpet, all you would be able to see would be threads, one or two of them at a time.

In this case, depending on the promises given to the Ukrainian government, they may have been led on to believe that the combined strength of the Ukrainian and the American Navies makes them the greatest naval power in the world.

And there is also the domestic policy factor of the whole thing.
A nation that feel are under attack usually rally around the incumbent leadership.
Are there elections coming soon?
Who is likely to win?
What if a war -or the threat of one- becomes the justification to postpone elections?

I believe it is unhelpfully simplistic to look at a tactical action and presume that tactics is all there is.
I believe that, besides tactics, there are operations, strategy, policy, political economy and geopolitics.
I believe they are all interwoven into a fabric and I believe that one needs to be able to appreciate the pattern they make, not just the weave.

[Pavlik the Rus]

Actually the Sea of Azov is according to Russia an inland water without a clear line of demarkation between Ukraine and Russia and both the Sea of Azov and Kerch Straight are according to that agreement shared territorial waters. The reason for this is that without such status you would have an Exclusive Economic Zone in the middle of the Sea of Azov which gives a lot of rights for international shipping.

So what you have is a third of the current operational Ukrainian navy peacefully exercising their right of passage from Odessa to Mariupol through the Kerch Straight. Russia broke either the 2003 agreement or the UNCLOS convention by seizing the ships and in both cases its an act of aggression initiated and carried out by Russia.

It is so good that you have mentioned that agreement Adar!
Now, tell me please, those arrested civilian ships in Ukrainean ports, what this document told about them?

Also when i checked last time, when ship crossing border, it must stop if border or costal guards ship orders to stop, no? I remind you that there are no single reported violation of protocol by FSB officers in that area.
Ukraineans refused to stop and was hit and surendered after few shots.

And if you so like treaties, can you give your opinion about attack on RF embasy and consul offices in Ukraine last night? Police done nothing to stop "activists" Does RF have a casus beli?

Guys, everything as planned.
Ukraine have a martial law without war declaration, complete loser president can rule and rob it further. Western mass media will post more shining pictures of glorious Ukraine, ignoring some... few... nah, it's all Kremlin propaganda

You are happy, right?

[Muizer]

Western mass media will post more shining pictures of glorious Ukraine, ignoring some... few... nah, it's all Kremlin propaganda

The Ukraine is a weak country bullied by a big one. That is as far as any sympathy for Ukraine in the West goes, I dare say. Of course every country has decent people, but between its highly corrupt government and judicial apparatus and its 'grassroots' nazi militias that's easy to forget sometimes.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

The Ukraine is a weak country bullied by a big one. That is as far as any sympathy for Ukraine in the West goes, I dare say. Of course every country has decent people, but between its highly corrupt government and judicial apparatus and its 'grassroots' nazi militias that's easy to forget sometimes.

Thats the reason, why i mistrust official ukrainian communiques.

Let's not forget, Ukraine started with boarding fish trawlers in the Asow Sea.

[Diocle]

.. what you have is a third of the current operational Ukrainian navy peacefully exercising their right of passage from Odessa to Mariupol through the Kerch Straight..

I see what happened in this way and sorry but IMO it's more realistic than the crap you posted:

1) Nazi Ukrainians staged the typical Nazi Ukrainian provocation against Russia.

2) Outcome? Typical: The Nazi Ukrainians lost 3 ships and ..

3) .. used their defeat to strenght their disgusting and ridicolous Nazi regime in Ukraina and also this is typically Nazi.

End of the tale.



Side Note: The fake state known as the "European Union of Soviet Republics" firmly (joking, sorry! ) supports the Ukranian Nazis, and .. also in this case, there is nothing actually new.

[Derpy Hooves]

Hi guys.

3 military ships entered territorial waters of RF without permission.
They was ramned, encircled and took abord.
One ukrainean sailor was injured.

This is not a news at all.
The real news here - Poroshenko declared that he will bring military regime inside country... 4 month before elections... where he has 4-5th place and zero chances to win
Now go ahead, taunt your mantras about ze evil Russia.

Not true. They share those territorial waters. Russia blocked Ukrainian ships from going forward then fired on them and captured them. Act of war right there

[Mithradates]

Dont forget that Putin's approval rating is rapidly declining since he signed the pension reforms.

BLYAT!

[caratacus]

Dont forget that Putin's approval rating is rapidly declining since he signed the pension reforms.

BLYAT!

It's not the only thing declining, so is naval discipline. BBC provides translation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and...mean-peninsula

The language and commands given during this encounter are extremley improper for a captain of a naval or coastguard vessel. Aggressive ramming of other vessels is totaly against marine protocol which ensures sailor's safety at sea. And in the video, looks entirely unjustified.

Both Russia and Ukraine need to hold urgent talks to discuss not ony this issue but the continued use of these shipping lanes. But hostile actions which endanger life must be treated with the utmost seriousness by the intenational community, If not the naval authority responsible.